The history of ZC; The past, present, and future.

[Pr1meIVI]

Do you guys think players of post ZC (ZCLeague) would be able to compete in games in LATE ZCT (ZCT 20-36) or vise versa.

Open for discussion.

I'll start off by saying the only person who would prolly be able to compete in ZCT as of right now is aSiL's terran.  No one else comes to mind other than her terran.  She got her bombing strat from infinity and took in kyo's mass pre-mm ghost strat and developed a wraith-whoring who has massive anti.  We really haven't tested her Terran in a real even GG but I'm sure we'll find out soon.

Mast-I-Kater is an old school ZC player who just recently got back as well as GN[FDU] and are newly registered into ZCL.  GN[FDU] easily established himself as a top 5/10 player already so that discussion if a ZCT player can keep up in todays game is over.  Mast-I-Kater is however even older than majority of the current ZC players and he's going to be one prime example if old ZCT players (ZCT 1-16) can uphold in todays game. He hasn't played sc for almost 3 years. 

To me, it seems the development of players are growing slower and slower everytime.  Only 4 players have made drastic changes and improvements (Loh]Kyu, iwin[BF], wash3r, and orangeju1ce) would be the most notable as 3-racers but even so, players like stronger[bf], ewie, and the rest of the zcl jr. league arent developing into players that can uphold in good games.

So it brings up another question, what's holding back gamers into getting better?  When I got back from 4-5 year break couple years ago, I was rated a 4.2 as voted by 10-15 ZCT players who handed in their player ratings for ZCT.  I only wanted to get better and people thought I was a smurf cause I came into ZCT as pr1me and was bad as fuck so of course playing 80+ games for 4-5 seasons helped.  I remember I played almost 130 games one season and my record was 84-44 and megix awarded me with most time wasted on sc.  But point is players should set a standard in which they can compete in good games because it seems like some games, people just set the same standard every game.  Just something I've been noticing.  I'll be awaing for some replies

[Admin]

from what ive noticed, game play is way slower the majority of the time, mm is way slower. a lot of players have weak mid games, especially many of the zergs. ppl need to learn how to mass units and use tech and their brains. some ppl seem to be mentally impaired.

[Tr0uble]

The game has changed a lot since ZCT started. The game now is much slower than what it used to be. I think we have to judge players during their "Pr1me" 

The only two players who I've seen make DRASTIC changes from horrible to dominant are Taps and Athena. When ZCT died and we migrated to Senmon, Tapsy was just awful at ZC. He was cool as hell, but he was slightly above Demonyo's level, lol. Through hard practice, watching reps, playing with people MUCH MUCH better than him at the time, he has transformed into one of the most dominant players. I don't think he ever reached Surya's, Sae's, tC's, or Frank's level, but I honestly think he's a better player in his prime than byu and lefty, easily. Byu had skills no doubt, but the only thing that made him stand out was his toss, which was only recall based. A middle game always threw Byu off and was the best way to get a win vs him.  Recall match? He'd win 90% it seemed. He's better than Lefty b/c Lefty hacked multiple times, not taking away from Ahmad b/c he really is a great player, but he tarnished himself greatly, in my eyes, for hacking.

Andy (Frozen) is the same as taps in every regard, but I don't consider them as dominant as the people mentioned above because they never showed the consistency that the others showed. This doesn't take away in anything they've done because now they're both GREAT players.

I didn't play much with Athena because when I started to play less, she started to play more. When she first started playing she was decent with terran and then it seemed 4-5 months later she one of the few TvT matches that was a challenge.

Granted I haven't played almost a year, but people like PH and infinity were decent back then, they were too inconsistent to be mentioned by me. I'm sure this has changed because now it seems almost every win reported has one of them in it.

One thing I still have against ZCL is activity, although it has picked up past couple months, it still isn't anywhere near ZCT when we were averaging 50-65 players each season. So because activity has dropped, people don't get a chance to play against people who are better than them.

And like Myst said, people now have absolutely no mid game. When I left, people had no concept of a mass, tech, builds, etc.

People who I didn't mentioned but have improved greatly since ZCL:
Kyung
Law
Ewie

[AtheNA[BF]]

I just did this on the fly when I got home?. Haven?t edited it at all.

I like this thread; it is something I think we have all discussed on BNET at one point or another.

Pr1me - So it brings up another question, what's holding back gamers into getting better? 

I think a major reason is just activity of players.  Now the channel we reside in currently Op Zcroom is usually populated? but only a handful of those players will actively ZCL consistently, while others are on only during the weekends or so. Furthermore are time zones?  Good people do get on? but it?s always at the wrong times or they work late. For example -Megix and Logic are in Australia. UnCas plays but he works late and is west coast time? etc. This game has been around for a long time and while it has aged? so has its players.  However, this doesn?t fully answer your question.

The other part to this is similar to what happen in ZcT towards its end.  From my recollection, you had a group of really good players who had their own click in zct (inner circle) and they only played games with each other.  This is very understandable as who doesn?t what a good game, but as time goes on you have a wide gap? like the rich and the poor.  I can admit as I have gotten a little better?. I don?t want to play bad games and I often wait to play with certain people? so maybe that is just the nature of the game.

Part three of this? is the death of the clans. There was a time when you had many clans and while clans serve many purposes? their number one priority is to make their players BETTER. You have the ZC community, but within that you have the clans, which are community within themselves.  I went from girls[kick]ass (AngeLHeart) to the clan [IAM] to eventually [BF], and I must say it helped me a lot, as it eased the transition from pub player to inny play. I remember having serious anxiety issues when being asked to join an inny early on.  Additionally, it allowed me to play with other players of similar to higher skill levels, but not any ZC freaks who dominated games by themselves.  I personally think BloodFang played a special role in my zc experience as well as many of you.  Three of the people you mentioned in your post Jay were wash3r, Iwin, and Orangju1ce who were all in BloodFang and improved immensely within it along with me.  Let us not forget the many other players who have become very well known?.  Andy was in [iAM] too as Frozen? then went to [BF] and then [FDU].  BloodFang was at the very beginning of ZCT and has survived after all these years, with many of their players moving on. I must give thanks to Dave (Ghost[bf]) and Udo (Law[BF]); the channel op BloodFang has had many members and we played a lot of games, test build, and discussed game-play.  This clan as well as others contributed to a lot of players getting better which we don?t see anymore. I hope )goa( who is run by an ex BF player gets good too as they have a whole army of members and they often play in-house games every night.

Part Four: Truth time? You are simply going to have a low amount of players who truly want to get better and try to prefect their race or races. You have pub players like newtothis (I know he doesn?t inny) who have played this game since the beginning of time and has NEVER got any better? maybe worst. I personally don?t understand it? but some people while they play a lot just don?t get better, despite saying they want too.  In my opinion, the resources are there? reps and other players.  I know it can be hard to change up your game-play, especially in innys vs good people, but what bothers me most are people who either refuse or are completely oblivious to adapting to new or old game-play tactics. Like if I see a build or game-play that I like? I STEAL that for myself and try to make it my own.

In response to slower mm times, the mm times as of recent in the last 8 games or so I recently played have been generally around 8:14-8:17, mainly cause of the Zerg players. A lot of the newer zergs don?t drone whore, not saying that is good or bad? but it does effect the MM timings significantly. Now does having a really fast MM time compared to an average/slower MM time mean a better game? Maybe? maybe not. I?ve always wonder this myself? mainly b/c whether the mm time is 8:10 or 8:24 each player is limited by their own tech path which happens as soon as you get your barrack/spawning pool / or gateway. A standard build protoss can?t recall until after 10 minutes regardless if MM is 7:30 or 8:30? he or she is still limited by the tech. The real difference is of course units acquired before MM, but usually these games go as followed?. Both toss recalls first, then mid game eventually. Now I?m not saying a fast MM is meaningless? from a build stand point I Love a fast MM, assuming I know it is coming.  I think the real problem is what happens immediately after the MM? which is game-play, and that is what truly sets apart ZCT. Someone asked me if I thought playing Higher level games were harder?LOL. I said, nope, I find them way more relaxing (if even on both sides). My reasoning for this is because when you have players who share the responsibilities and do the small things?it makes everything so much smoother for the team. The real difference is ZCT players I notice do the small things in game that accumulate exponentially as the game progress. What they do is no mystery or secret, it?s simply a part of their overall game-play which has seem to have been lost or not executed consistently in today's games.

[law[bf]]

This is really funny,

I dont c any difference between the great gn or the builder sorry. Or bite_me or pr1me. Kyo, demonyo or asil.

My respects to Demurity ^^

Best improved player by far: Bratizbak and Arsenic.

ZCT/ZCL/wannabaddies all hideous player

[GN[FDU]]

This is really funny,

I dont c any difference between the great gn or the builder sorry. Or bite_me or pr1me. Kyo, demonyo or asil.

My respects to Demurity ^^

Best improved player by far: Bratizbak and Arsenic.

ZCT/ZCL/wannabaddies all hideous player

I don't see any difference between you and some of the pubs I've played with either.

[Tr0uble]

This is really funny,

I dont c any difference between the great gn or the builder sorry. Or bite_me or pr1me. Kyo, demonyo or asil.

My respects to Demurity ^^

Best improved player by far: Bratizbak and Arsenic.

ZCT/ZCL/wannabaddies all hideous player

I don't see any difference between you and some of the pubs I've played with either.

SLAM'D!!

TE QUIERO MAURITO!!!!! 

hopefully i can get my internet fixed so i can make a comeback

[Pr1meIVI]

Interesting Comments from everyone.

First I'd like to point out that MM times of recently that lisa pointed out.  I believe MM times are an importance to games, simply because if you aren't prepared for anything after 1min, you are going to start the game behind.  Examples include, temp drops on zerg or terran(no main D or rallies not prepared), MM RC's, muta bombs on eco, toss rushes down middle, even MM rushes.  These are all part of the game yet frowned upon but its still not gonna stop the likes of people who plan to win by all means necessary. Even toss's having low psi at 10mins can easily get drilled on by the other toss who is more experienced with a high psi and full base with full lates. I've seen players who think they can play at a high level yet put them in a game with high pro's with a fast mm, 95% of the time they are the black sheep of the team who contribute the least in the game who are lost and behind and cannot keep up with the basics at a faster pace than they are accustomed too.

Good thing Lisa pointed out the clan topic.  That is also true, quinn pointed that out in the updates category also that clan's are mainly used to develop teamwork skills which 3v3 is all about.  Players also should learn that developing teamwork skills will increase their winning percentage because easier to win a game as a team than alone.  Unless you are tC, Surya, or Sae, who can win and dominate games, you are going to have a tough time playing against 3 people than working as a team against 3 people.  As of right now, there are NO clans in ZCL besides FDU, BF seemed to have disappeared so how are the teamwork skills going to develop now? I guess its due to the lack of players and activity but I think we all just need a better incentive.

Another thing I'd like to point out is the importance of each race but esspecially zerg.  It seems like toss and terran seem to have either stayed equivalent to relative ZCT gamers since some ZCT players are still active but zerg's gameplay have dropped immensely.  Some zerg players have improved in really late game when they have all the larva in the world, but the small things like para, moving guards towards arbs, or finishing the base need constant reminders.  I always watch replays of almost every game I play and other games and majority of the zerg's cannot keep their psi at 200. Overlords are so essential, it never hurts to have more than enough. If anyone really wanted to improve their Z, the post about ZC inny strats surely helps as vast number of players gave me their feedback with nothing but good things.

Everyone has pointed out players who have improved definitely like bratizbak, arsenic-, loh]kyu, ewie, iwin, orangejuice, wash3r, athena, even frozen who at the end of ZCT wasn't as good as he is now.  I just hope the improvements continue to come and ZC activity continues to be stable.

[Notorious]

The game has changed a lot since ZCT started. The game now is much slower than what it used to be. I think we have to judge players during their "Pr1me" 

The only two players who I've seen make DRASTIC changes from horrible to dominant are Taps and Athena. When ZCT died and we migrated to Senmon, Tapsy was just awful at ZC. He was cool as hell, but he was slightly above Demonyo's level, lol. Through hard practice, watching reps, playing with people MUCH MUCH better than him at the time, he has transformed into one of the most dominant players. I don't think he ever reached Surya's, Sae's, tC's, or Frank's level, but I honestly think he's a better player in his prime than byu and lefty, easily. Byu had skills no doubt, but the only thing that made him stand out was his toss, which was only recall based. A middle game always threw Byu off and was the best way to get a win vs him.  Recall match? He'd win 90% it seemed. He's better than Lefty b/c Lefty hacked multiple times, not taking away from Ahmad b/c he really is a great player, but he tarnished himself greatly, in my eyes, for hacking.

Andy (Frozen) is the same as taps in every regard, but I don't consider them as dominant as the people mentioned above because they never showed the consistency that the others showed. This doesn't take away in anything they've done because now they're both GREAT players.

I didn't play much with Athena because when I started to play less, she started to play more. When she first started playing she was decent with terran and then it seemed 4-5 months later she one of the few TvT matches that was a challenge.

Granted I haven't played almost a year, but people like PH and infinity were decent back then, they were too inconsistent to be mentioned by me. I'm sure this has changed because now it seems almost every win reported has one of them in it.

One thing I still have against ZCL is activity, although it has picked up past couple months, it still isn't anywhere near ZCT when we were averaging 50-65 players each season. So because activity has dropped, people don't get a chance to play against people who are better than them.

And like Myst said, people now have absolutely no mid game. When I left, people had no concept of a mass, tech, builds, etc.

People who I didn't mentioned but have improved greatly since ZCL:
Kyung
Law
Ewie

wow thanks Q.

[CoR[BF]]

wow failed to mention TAP's!

[Mast-I-Kater]

This is an interesting thread   I like it...

So here are my observations from my limited time back thus far...

When I quit almost 3 years ago... It was just getting to the point where EVERYONE was incorporating late gates/ports/barracks into their builds by default. I come from the era of "build your ass off, and max psi before MM" where we competed to see who could max psi the fastest (tC still has the current record for P, and I haven't seen any posts of anyone breaking my t record of 8:28). So it is extremely hard to switch around the mindset to methodically build in a way that you have certain buildings starting and ending at a certain time. Now, coming back, the biggest thing I am seeing is the extreme wraith whoring and the diminished use of tanks and even factories in t builds.

I THINK that this is mainly due to the observations that some of you have already put... the lack of Zerg using their tech. Back in ZCT, it was just about default, that the first units you made after MM were queens and defilers. Any time you saw wraiths on the side, you ensnared ASAP.... some Zergs even kept 2 defilers on each side to try and catch the wraiths that came too close to the walls... these ensnares allowed the other t to fly in and decimate the enemy wraiths. That, combined with about 6-8 defilers in the middle at all times, any time there were ANY air even close to your middle, the z would get plagues out.... That, combined with a couple of snares, and 2-3 well placed storms, you would have no need to ever have 4-5 groups of wraiths, because guards would all be dead before they were half way through middle, and enemy wraiths went down too ez as well. It almost became a waste to have 4-5 groups of wraiths because Zergs were so consistent at plaguing EVERYTHING that flew.

Now, though, I have yet to really see any Z make defilers early in the game (8-20min in), and make use of them in the middle, or make use of snares on the sides. This makes wraith whoring not only possible, but almost mandatory because you have to take out mass amounts of guards or opponent wraiths in a short amount of time to save middle...

Just my 2 cents on gameplay differences that I have seen so far.

As for the part about activity... It is really hard to battle that one. Me, Lefty, Gravy, and tC started ZCT mainly because we were starting to see a major decline in overall activity (and mainly higher skilled activity, which is what you are now (and have been) struggling with) on both servers (moreso on west). We wanted to make a central location (like SCT) where ZC'ers could all come together and challenge each other in a competitive nature. This ended up fulfilling a 2fold goal: The competition quality definitely went up, and quantity of games went up as well. Looking back on it, I am not sure whether the overall quantity of games was actually going up, or whether it was just sustaining. Because ZCT ended up taking players from all of the other ZC channels (BF, MB, La, FDU, D[a]P, WaNa, GuNz, senmon, etc) and ended up drawing them all into one place. So instead of the games being all spread out amongst all of the different channels, they were just concentrated into one spot, so it seemed like there were more games happening all of the time. We definitely saw an increase in quality from people though... like Templar_dap, canadian[BF], woot[bf], ghost[bf], neo[bf], uncas truly applied himself and turned into a phenom, megix, tr0uble, h1pp13, me, byu1, sae, chops... I could go on and on about the people that improved so drastically once ZCT came out. It was almost as if the ZC game took a giant leap forward across the map.

The problem of quantity of players will always be a dwindling thing. That just comes from the generations of players growing up and spending their excess time doing other things (work, family, schooling, other games). It also doesn't help that there is no influx of players at all. So as players stop playing, there are no new ones picking up the game and saying "Hmm, this looks like an awesome, exciting, and action packed game!" And out of those that do happen to pick up the game for 15$ at Best Buy, how many of them get past the campaign, and go online? And out of those, how many know to get on Battle.net.East under BroodWar. And out of those that do that, how many find a ZC game, or a ZC player that can get them to play 1 ZC game, and like it without being taunted and BMd about being a noob and getting booted from the game?

I know that there is a lot of BM involved with ZC players... it's just in our blood... we gotta do it! But think back to your early days. Who was that one, or 2, or 3 people that truly helped you get better. Who was there to offer advice on builds, strats, gameplay choices, insight on others' strategies? I know that, for me, if it wasn't for tanka (back then, went by Chelsea as "Killa_Kill") getting me into WaNa, and then gabe, joel, keenan, steve-o, and rob (thatsCrAzY, his bro, blackpresident, alpha-4, and da_s1ck_n355, respectively) taking me under their wings and teaching me playstyles and really including me in their games, I would have never came back to this game after my second sebatical. Just think about it... everyone has had that one or 2 people that really took them under their wing when coming up the ranks. How often do you actively recruit people from pubs and bring them in to the "inny" world and truly help them get better?

If you really want to fix the problem, you would have to have some sort of marketing campaign to get more people to be interested in starcraft 1 purely for ZC. It could be done any number of ways, but most of us are too lazy to do it.

**Edit** Another way would be to try and get old players to come back... You would have to do this through word of mouth, and emails, and old msn messenger names... I know that most of the old WaNa players all had each other's MSN Messenger emails so that we could always be able to reach each other outside of the game when we needed more for East vs West matches You might be able to pull emails off of the old ZCT, BF, MB, WaNa, etc websites and forum boards? Email the players and send out a fun reminder about ZC still being alive. This might entice some to come back

[ewie]

lol doode you are typing essays!

[korean]to[]

whats tC's record on p ?

[Mast-I-Kater]

I dont remember

I used to have the rep, but it has been lost with time. I still have some reps from a couple years ago... but I think they are all corrupt.

[arie]

whats tC's record on p ?

8:17 full base.
Attached rep (pretty sure this is it, if not, let me know)