Rules Discussion

[xS.SPLiFF]

Yes Tyler, spill that tea giiiirl

[Pr1meIVI]

One topic I would like to discuss is the MM Rushing:

I think there's a misunderstanding on the MM rushing part. We play ZC NR MM+1, the rule states 60-90 secsAFTER MM not AFTER MM+1. Or maybe you guys want me to rephrase that is 30 secs after +1 Map max? But the reason for that grace period is to determine if a map max tactic is being used or not to leverage half the points or full points.  I think that's where players are forgetting about the point system. Unless, you guys include any attacks crossing the status after MM and before +1 to be considered a map max rush? That's what I would suggest if there was going to be any rule changes for map max rushing. Map max rushing should be defined as actually map max rushing when the map maxes.

Recommendation: Any attack/magic unit crossing the statue between map max and +1 is considered a map max rush and will only be considered 50% points.

Hatch Limit: Leave as is, no limit would make games longer.

Bombing: No changes.

Tripling: Removing this rule creates more teamwork in this game, I do not mind removing it but must be discussed before any finalizations.

OG to BW: I would suggest the 4/6 rule, if 4/6 people want to play BW instead in the ZC game, they may do so.

People who sit and wait around during games is up to them, players play base on their style, if they were innovators to this game, it was probably done 10-15 years ago. Overall, Like mast-i-kaTer said, I think at this time of age, priority should be keeping activity high, skill takes time, and creativity was done during ZCT/pre ZCT days.

Me and Myst will probably add one more admin/judge in the future if required, but at this time Me and Myst are current admins/judges as well as Lisa being the other judge.

[korean]to[]

I personally do not think we need a massive overhaul of rules. There are some with ambiguous language, like the mm rush rule, but other than that, the rules worked for the longest time without that much trouble. I understand the urge to change, but I do not know if they will make the game better. We have pretty good activity, and people are coming back, so I don't think the argument "we need to change rules, so we can increase activity" is a valid argument.

As a player who came in during the latter half of zct through the end of zcl, I do not like it when we build for 8 mins, and for other team to mm rush. That's no fun. I do like how mm rushes are rewarded 50% of the points because it is a cheap tactic. The 60-90 sec grace period, I get, but we should definitely change the rule BACK to what it was (which was it must be a controlled attack by all three members) to allow temp drops, mm +1 rcs, etc.

I don't see a reason to change terrans from wraith bombing opposite mins. It keeps the other terran busy, and it is pretty easy to counter. The terran who sends their wraiths to attack mins are also wasting their units.

I do think unlimited middle d and unlimited hatches are terrible ideas. There is nothing wrong with our system now. As to reply to Spliff's statement that rule changes should not be open to the public, but to a certain few, how are you going to choose the few? There are old timers coming back; there are people who have been through zct and zcl; and there are people who are just starting. Why don't we play a few seasons with these new groups, and then see which rules do not work and need changes? 

[korean]to[]

A response to Jay:

The grace period of 60-90 sec after MM is a good rule, but again, the language of the rules as CURRENTLY state is not how most of us (the players who have been through zct and zcl) knew it as. It never used to be that if a protoss rcs or temp drops at 913 if mm was 812 it was a mm rush. That rule is new to most of us, and we were unaware because the previous rule used to be that all three people had to attack for it to be considered as mm rush. Let's make it how it used to be? I'll bump the thread where it has the language of the rule before the current rule.

[Pr1meIVI]

A response to Jay:

The grace period of 60-90 sec after MM is a good rule, but again, the language of the rules as CURRENTLY state is not how most of us (the players who have been through zct and zcl) knew it as. It never used to be that if a protoss rcs or temp drops at 913 if mm was 812 it was a mm rush. That rule is new to most of us, and we were unaware because the previous rule used to be that all three people had to attack for it to be considered as mm rush. Let's make it how it used to be? I'll bump the thread where it has the language of the rule before the current rule.

To clarify what MM rushing is with example prior to current MM rushing rule:

MM Rushing
- MM Rushing is allowed, but will receive 50% points of full win.
- MM rush grace period of 60-90 seconds
ex) MM 830, anytime between 930-1000 is considered MM RUSH
- Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle before 60 seconds is a disqualification.
- Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle in between 60-90 seconds is considered a MM Rush.
- Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle after the grace period is considered a full game loss/win

[korean]to[]

Yes, exactly. The example says a MM rush anytime between 930-1000 if mm is 830 is considered a mm rush. THEN the second bullet point after that DEFINES what MM rush is, which is defined as "Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle in between 60-90 seconds is considered a MM Rush."

So that example would indicate that a controlled attack of 10 units per team member is a mm rush, not when a protoss, terran, or zerg attacks alone.

[law[bf]]

A response to Jay:

The grace period of 60-90 sec after MM is a good rule, but again, the language of the rules as CURRENTLY state is not how most of us (the players who have been through zct and zcl) knew it as. It never used to be that if a protoss rcs or temp drops at 913 if mm was 812 it was a mm rush. That rule is new to most of us, and we were unaware because the previous rule used to be that all three people had to attack for it to be considered as mm rush. Let's make it how it used to be? I'll bump the thread where it has the language of the rule before the current rule.

To clarify what MM rushing is with example prior to current MM rushing rule:

MM Rushing
- MM Rushing is allowed, but will receive 50% points of full win.
- MM rush grace period of 60-90 seconds
ex) MM 830, anytime between 930-1000 is considered MM RUSH
- Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle before 60 seconds is a disqualification.
- Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle in between 60-90 seconds is considered a MM Rush.
- Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle after the grace period is considered a full game loss/win

Dude make it simpler, after mm+1 you con do whatever, without discounting points, full win. Everyone should be ready at mm+1.  Make the players mqke the strategy choices, go mid at mm+1, rc at mm+1, drop at mm+1, etc. Every strategy has pro and contras. If a zerg go with hydras at mm+1 , the zerg ll have a poor main d, like 1 row less, and whatever

Seriously these rules are for stupid players that cant adjut their games.

[DiscoveredCheck]

I think it should be nr mm +75 seconds

[Pr1meIVI]

A response to Jay:

The grace period of 60-90 sec after MM is a good rule, but again, the language of the rules as CURRENTLY state is not how most of us (the players who have been through zct and zcl) knew it as. It never used to be that if a protoss rcs or temp drops at 913 if mm was 812 it was a mm rush. That rule is new to most of us, and we were unaware because the previous rule used to be that all three people had to attack for it to be considered as mm rush. Let's make it how it used to be? I'll bump the thread where it has the language of the rule before the current rule.

To clarify what MM rushing is with example prior to current MM rushing rule:

MM Rushing
- MM Rushing is allowed, but will receive 50% points of full win.
- MM rush grace period of 60-90 seconds
ex) MM 830, anytime between 930-1000 is considered MM RUSH
- Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle before 60 seconds is a disqualification.
- Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle in between 60-90 seconds is considered a MM Rush.
- Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle after the grace period is considered a full game loss/win

Dude make it simpler, after mm+1 you con do whatever, without discounting points, full win. Everyone should be ready at mm+1.  Make the players mqke the strategy choices, go mid at mm+1, rc at mm+1, drop at mm+1, etc. Every strategy has pro and contras. If a zerg go with hydras at mm+1 , the zerg ll have a poor main d, like 1 row less, and whatever

Seriously these rules are for stupid players that cant adjut their games.

I'm not disagreeing at all, but does that mean we remove the term mm rush altogether? And after mm+1 is either full win/loss..

It's true, every action has its pros or cons, it'll make scouting a more important to this game if that's the case. Should we then make another rule for scouting?

I think this would put more emphasis on units after mm instead of base definitely but I still want to hear more input.

[Mast-I-Kater]

To clarify what MM rushing is with example prior to current MM rushing rule:

MM Rushing
- MM Rushing is allowed, but will receive 50% points of full win.
- MM rush grace period of 60-90 seconds
ex) MM 830, anytime between 930-1000 is considered MM RUSH
- Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle before 60 seconds is a disqualification.
- Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle in between 60-90 seconds is considered a MM Rush.
- Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle after the grace period is considered a full game loss/win

It makes sense... the 30 seconds after MM+1 is just there in the rules so that you can define what a "MM Rush" is for scoring purposes. I think it is just a little convoluted and confusing due to the wording.

ZC used to be NRMM. Then too many people started MM rushing... so the +1 gradually took over as the default to inhibit MM rushes. Now... we are defining an "MM Rush" as an "MM+1 Rush" which is the 30 second "grace period". IMO to make it more understandable, make it NAMM+1 (No Attack until Map Max +1). It sounds like most are in agreeance on how the rule is SUPPOSED to work... it is just confusingly worded.

I like the way it is written out in the example that I quoted from Primus. But the bottom part of the "10 units per team member" makes it so that 2 people could attack all out, but the 3rd stay home until after the "grace period" and it wouldn't be classified as half points.

[X_ExpertGamer_X]

lets just make it nr 20 again boys for all the slow new players?

[Mast-I-Kater]

lets just make it nr 20 again boys for all the slow new players?

I am down for that! Might give me a chance haha

In all seriousness though... just get rid of the "NRMM+1" rule and make it NRMM... the 1min will be the "MMRUSH 50% points" time period. If anyone wants to attack within that time period... kudos, but you get 50% of the points. Your choice. Simple. Effective.

[thunder]

Here is my 2 cents... not really an opinion... but rationale behind a lot of the rules.... since I was the one that implemented the original rules with ZCT (well, me, thatscrazy, and lefty). They have changed a tad bit over all of these years... but most of them are my writing, still in my words haha.

**I was never a big fan of more rules. I thought much like most of you are speaking... we are the best ZC players in the world... think about that for a second and really let that sink in. To me, a big part of being the best, is being able to adapt your playstyle in order to counter your opponent's playstyles. If you can't setup proper defenses and tactics in order to counter what your opponents are doing, then you should not be considered the best. However, during ZCT1, 2, 3, and 4, my sentiments were a huge overwhelming minority, and I felt that too many rules were being implemented, so I stepped down from admin due to the league going in a direction that I highly disagreed with. BUT, people loved the rules and the rules are a big part of what has helped the league stay around and keep ZC active since 2002. **

Most of the rules are created in order to mitigate "cheap tactics" i.e. huge reward for little effort, and very low risk.

Hatch Limits - The limits on middle defense, and hatches were implemented due to an old player named Meng. He would literally build mass spores all over the map. We are talking cover each wall 3-4 rows deep, and practically wall up the middle. The hatch limit was implemented around season 2-3 because zergs get so little larva early in the game, it became a rush to just get as many hatches out as possible in order to starve your opposing Z. SWFT was the big proponent of this strategy... and it turned into a problem having around 200-250 hatches on the map. Because then, NO ONE was able to build units and everyone would be around 150 psi and map would be maxed. So games would go on for 2hours. People would just revert to strategies of "I am willing to sit in my chair longer than you" lol. Keeping Z limited on spores/hatches/mid d keeps games shorter and more action packed. This is perhaps the 1 rule that I am 100% in favor of keeping.

Bombing - Bombing rules were implemented because Z players would frequently take 5 sets of mutas in and rape and pillage mains. Lots of times collecting 3 mains in one swoop. It used to be "no main bombing", then people would come in and hunt tech buildings, then it became "No main or tech hunting", then people would come in and waypoint attack supply depots and overloards and pylons, then it became... and so on. This is one of the rules that I was adamantly against because of how it kept getting added to as people were adapting to the rules and playing the game. IMO bombing is easy enough to counter... devote 1-2 temps and 1 arb, and 1 sci vessel to each main. 12 units across the team devoted to anti bombing, and your enemy is fucked if they try it. And then you have an easy counter. BUT then we figured out that MM favors later built buildings... so now rrans can easily replenish wraiths and bomb all they want... hence why rrans nowadays will fly wraiths to enemy mains and let them do whatever. Because they are easily replaced. So, the way bombing started... it was a huge risk because if you failed, your team was left to play 2v3 for a while. Now, wraiths can be reproduced so easily that bombing is a very low risk, and thus considered a cheaper tactic. However, having your Z setup 4 spores around your T main would counter this enough to dissuade ppl from doing it imo, so I am still keen on removing this rule. I am up in the air on overloard hunting though...

MM Rushes - The Megix rule haha. Megix perfected "The Blob" in which he would mass upgraded 1 1 1 with movement and range.. 200/200 lings and hydras at mm just to piss people off. I think he had something like a 95% success rate. He would win the match single handedly and there was nothing you could do. However, MM recalls were considered a viable tactic. If you could have a recall ready with enough PSI at 8min 10 seconds... that means you had to have made a smaller base. So there was a tradeoff here, and it took skill to pull off. Then rrans figured out how to make ghosts (I believe it was Lisa that perfected the ghosts at MM) and locked down the MM recalls. So, if you could pull off an MM recall, you deserved to win the game. It is a risky move. Megix' blob was just stupid lol... So we made it NrMM+1, but no one could still stop the Blob and we couldn't punish everyone for his behavior, so we just made MM rushes worth half the points to help discourage it. The whole 60-90seconds after MM+1 is a new rule to me... and that is just dumb imo lol

Tripling - I am 100% against this rule lol. It is extremely easily countered with stasis, temps, and help from your allies. It also creates an interesting decision making point in the game ... do you help your allie? Or do you hit middle and take middle and possibly the game? I have found that in almost every case of this happening. It is ALWAYS in your best interest to help your allie.... plus if your Z is doing his job, then you should be able to see a triple coming WAYYY before it happens. It requires teamwork in order to beat teamwork. Pulling a triple is a high risk, high reward move. 1 triple can easily end a game in either sides favor. This whole nonsense about 2 players going through middle and then the 3rd coming over the wall counting as a triple is dumb... That is just 2 players cutting off your opponent's help from their 2 players, while creating a 2 front attack at the same time. A team would already need to have broken middle to get to this point, they are now just holding their push while the 3rd player creates another attack point. 100% viable imo.

To me... less is more... fewer rules creates more creativity in the game and forces players to learn the game and adapt. But, with that said... there was no greater time in SC history where ZC was so prevalent than when rules became standardized and ZCT formed. Imo ZC has lasted through the years BECAUSE of the standardized ZCT and ZCL leagues. So there is something to them... Do we want to prioritize player skill and creative games, or do we want to prioritize overall activity?

I completely agree with you.  In addition, you actually provide good insight on your reasoning as opposed to just giving one-sentence answers.  I think with more freedom there will be more volatility in playstyles and it will lead to more intense games.

[killer]

What is this nonsense! Why encourage this? The best players can make both a full base and have plenty of units it is what differentiates noobs from the best. You are going to punish people that make nice bases and have little units. ANYBODY could be maxed by mm. That is not a skill. But having a good base along with it is the talent. You will never have ANY ggs where people have to sacrifice full units for no base. The average game will be 15 mins. Everyone should have the chance to protect their main and set up defense. No they shouldn't have forever to do it but at the very minimum mm +1. This would give Protoss a HUGE advantage since they are always prepared to go on the offensive quickly whereas Terran has to wait for emp/lockdown/siege to upgrade and energy and Zerg makes units and main d in that time. AT MM. Zerg and Terran focus more on base than Protoss does. Build late starports and hatches towards the end of mm. That's what makes the game fun. It is an art to make a nice base. Every race should have a fair chance to defend themselves. Why would anyone want to play a game with a shitty base to be maxed at mm.. Then the rest of the game is boring.......


Obviously any P player would love this but the other races no. You people are trying to create what was once a skillful game into a joke. It was obvious to see who the more skillful players were. Any idiot can get plenty of units and rush mid asap. People like law and gamer do it 90% of the time. Does that make them good? No it does not. That defeats the purpose of why I even liked this game in the first place. Say and surya were gods in my eyes because they would know when to recall and dodge emp and do it all. Not as quickly as the rules permitted but at ANY time. Jake mastered the mm rc and people knew it was coming and still couldn't stop it. It is simple to build a mm rc base for Protoss it doesn't change much. You would have to COMPLETELY change the Terran/Zerg build in order to protect a mm rc that is just SO stupid and impossible. It seems most of the people playing now main Protoss but the other races are at a extreme disadvantage when applying these rules.


I don't even get why anyone would mm rush. It's basically admitting you are terrible at the game and admitting you have no chance of winning so have to play cheap to not ruin your record. Or oh shit I gotta go in 30 mins so I'm just going to mm rush. That is so stupid..... Mm rushes shouldn't even be a thing. If a team was to mm rush they should tell the other team they are so the game is balanced. If 3 noobs beat 3 elite players by mm rushing that is not a upset.. It is the most pussy shit...... It requires ZERO skill to make hydras and upgrade and Protoss to max and upgrade. ZERO. They shouldn't even receive half points. When people show replays of the best games NEVER ONCE will it ever be a mm rush.. With maybe an exception being if the other team knows it's coming and can defend then it's fun. But when completely surprised with 300 units coming at you it's retarded. The game is supposed to be played a certain way. Be fair to all races. I wouldn't change the rules at all just minor things not something that drastic.   

[law[bf]]

What is this nonsense! Why encourage this? The best players can make both a full base and have plenty of units it is what differentiates noobs from the best. You are going to punish people that make nice bases and have little units. ANYBODY could be maxed by mm. That is not a skill. But having a good base along with it is the talent. You will never have ANY ggs where people have to sacrifice full units for no base. The average game will be 15 mins. Everyone should have the chance to protect their main and set up defense. No they shouldn't have forever to do it but at the very minimum mm +1. This would give Protoss a HUGE advantage since they are always prepared to go on the offensive quickly whereas Terran has to wait for emp/lockdown/siege to upgrade and energy and Zerg makes units and main d in that time. AT MM. Zerg and Terran focus more on base than Protoss does. Build late starports and hatches towards the end of mm. That's what makes the game fun. It is an art to make a nice base. Every race should have a fair chance to defend themselves. Why would anyone want to play a game with a shitty base to be maxed at mm.. Then the rest of the game is boring.......


Obviously any P player would love this but the other races no. You people are trying to create what was once a skillful game into a joke. It was obvious to see who the more skillful players were. Any idiot can get plenty of units and rush mid asap. People like law and gamer do it 90% of the time. Does that make them good? No it does not. That defeats the purpose of why I even liked this game in the first place. Say and surya were gods in my eyes because they would know when to recall and dodge emp and do it all. Not as quickly as the rules permitted but at ANY time. Jake mastered the mm rc and people knew it was coming and still couldn't stop it. It is simple to build a mm rc base for Protoss it doesn't change much. You would have to COMPLETELY change the Terran/Zerg build in order to protect a mm rc that is just SO stupid and impossible. It seems most of the people playing now main Protoss but the other races are at a extreme disadvantage when applying these rules.


I don't even get why anyone would mm rush. It's basically admitting you are terrible at the game and admitting you have no chance of winning so have to play cheap to not ruin your record. Or oh shit I gotta go in 30 mins so I'm just going to mm rush. That is so stupid..... Mm rushes shouldn't even be a thing. If a team was to mm rush they should tell the other team they are so the game is balanced. If 3 noobs beat 3 elite players by mm rushing that is not a upset.. It is the most pussy shit...... It requires ZERO skill to make hydras and upgrade and Protoss to max and upgrade. ZERO. They shouldn't even receive half points. When people show replays of the best games NEVER ONCE will it ever be a mm rush.. With maybe an exception being if the other team knows it's coming and can defend then it's fun. But when completely surprised with 300 units coming at you it's retarded. The game is supposed to be played a certain way. Be fair to all races. I wouldn't change the rules at all just minor things not something that drastic.

Moron