Rules Discussion

[killer]

I personally think zc was at a great place before it "died." Everyone understood and accepted the rules. Not sure why anyone would want to revert to things that have been proven as failures. Kyung brings up a great point. I've played in countless games where surya prime say kyung yan ect will go mid or recall mid at mm+1, take mid, and basically win the game themself. I wouldnt even have to do anything. Send scv. That would be ridiculous to call that a mm rush that is just one BEAST of a player basically 1v3ing. Even if tanks and wraiths and guards follow shortly after I would not call that a mm rush. Mutas bombing mid is also a great strategy. Why not just keep everything the way it was? Or at least put it to a vote

[thunder]

I personally think zc was at a great place before it "died." Everyone understood and accepted the rules. Not sure why anyone would want to revert to things that have been proven as failures. Kyung brings up a great point. I've played in countless games where surya prime say kyung yan ect will go mid or recall mid at mm+1, take mid, and basically win the game themself. I wouldnt even have to do anything. Send scv. That would be ridiculous to call that a mm rush that is just one BEAST of a player basically 1v3ing. Even if tanks and wraiths and guards follow shortly after I would not call that a mm rush. Mutas bombing mid is also a great strategy. Why not just keep everything the way it was? Or at least put it to a vote

I get that you want to be heard, but if you're not an active player, then why are you chiming in just to inhibit the active players?

[killer]

Because what makes more sense to you? Determining the rules and how things are going to be done BEFORE I come back or AFTER? Yeah.. Let me comeback just for you to COMPLETELY change the game we have all been playing this entire time? Which active player am I inhibiting? Lmao. You literally make zero sense. Me agreeing with Kyung and asking for a LEAGUE VOTE? Inhibing active players.. Yeah you got me my bad. I'll play a game tonight so I'm permitted to talk on the forum don't worry Thunder!

How interesting though.. Haven't seen Mast play a game.. Yet he's allowed to "inhibit active players" and be heard. Good logic (:

[korean]to[]

Yes, I am still waiting to hear WHEN that rule was changed and WHY. When did bombing mid with mutas at mm+1 or temp dropping at mm+1 become a mm rush for the whole team? and WHY? I posed the question from the very beginning. If our rules changed without the majority's knowledge, we should know why, at the very least.

[thunder]

Yes, I am still waiting to hear WHEN that rule was changed and WHY. When did bombing mid with mutas at mm+1 or temp dropping at mm+1 become a mm rush for the whole team? and WHY? I posed the question from the very beginning. If our rules changed without the majority's knowledge, we should know why, at the very least.

You're being overskeptical on the wrong details.  These rules have been in place since around the beginning of ZCL.  It's just that strategies develop, and nobody bothered to think about the rules before.  There are just many unwritten rules that we just go by.  People like killer probably pushed for safer rules to be prepared at 10 mins, then play the game.  Rules aren't just pulled out of thin air.

[korean]to[]

Sigh Andy. I just quoted what the rule on ZCL site was. Let me do that shit for you again because you obviously either failed to understand my point or didn't bother to read it and just responded.

As of January 6, 2012, which is at least 2 years after ZCL started, the rules were:
MM Rushing
- MM Rushing is allowed, but will receive 50% points of full win.
- MM rush grace period of 60-90 seconds
ex) MM 830, anytime between 930-1000 is considered MM RUSH
- Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle before 60 seconds is a disqualification.
- Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle in between 60-90 seconds is considered a MM Rush.
- Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle after the grace period is considered a full game loss/win

Then, somewhere along the way, the rules changed to our current

- MM Rushing is allowed, but will receive 50% points of full win.
- MM rush grace period of 60-90 seconds
- Any player crossing the wall or mid and attacking before MM+1 will recieve a DQ.
- Any attack from any player between 60-90 after MM is considered a MM rush
- Any unit(s) besides scvs, probes, drones going across mid/side walls before 60 seconds of MM is DQ. Overlords are allowed to scout before MM.
- Opposing team is allowed to kill any unit as long as it is on their side prior to map max
- Clearing sides after MM is allowed as long as the units does not go past the wall edge of the opposing sides before MM+1
- if any unit attacking beyond the middle statue will be considered a DQ

According to the first set of rules, all the tactics I mentioned were legal, and people have been using the said tactics before ZCL started. These strategies did not simply "develop" during ZCL. It was not that "nobody bothered to think about the rules before;" it was that the rules changed DURING zcl. So please, if you want to be involved in the discussion, read what others have said BEFORE you comment. Thanks.

[killer]

You're being overskeptical on the wrong details.  These rules have been in place since around the beginning of ZCL.  It's just that strategies develop, and nobody bothered to think about the rules before.  There are just many unwritten rules that we just go by.  People like killer probably pushed for safer rules to be prepared at 10 mins, then play the game.  Rules aren't just pulled out of thin air.

Contradicted much....... First the rules have been in place since the beginning.. And then there are UNWRITTEN rules you just go by? As a league what are we supposed to just GUESS what those unwritten rules are? And then.. Rules aren't just pulled out of thin air? If they are UNWRITTEN.. THAT IS EXACTLY WHERE THEY ARE PULLED OUT OF? Come up with what you want the final rules to be quickly and let people decide whether to continue playing the game or leave. I wanted to come back and play but I do not support any of the things you are saying. Sorry.

[thunder]

You're being overskeptical on the wrong details.  These rules have been in place since around the beginning of ZCL.  It's just that strategies develop, and nobody bothered to think about the rules before.  There are just many unwritten rules that we just go by.  People like killer probably pushed for safer rules to be prepared at 10 mins, then play the game.  Rules aren't just pulled out of thin air.

Contradicted much....... First the rules have been in place since the beginning.. And then there are UNWRITTEN rules you just go by? As a league what are we supposed to just GUESS what those unwritten rules are? And then.. Rules aren't just pulled out of thin air? If they are UNWRITTEN.. THAT IS EXACTLY WHERE THEY ARE PULLED OUT OF? Come up with what you want the final rules to be quickly and let people decide whether to continue playing the game or leave. I wanted to come back and play but I do not support any of the things you are saying. Sorry.

Damn you guys are being snarky as hell with that passive aggressive/sarcastic mirror endings "Thanks/Sorry" lol

Response to kyu:
1) This is anecdotal, as I don't recall the exact reasoning for the rules changing.  Ask pr1me or myst.  However, you can kind of retroactively backtrack and see that the rules clearly got more specific post-change.  This indicates that people were attacking with low unit counts before the time limit (i.e. you can literally attack with 5 units before mm and its not a dq). You shouldn't be asking when these rules changed (which you answered yourself) or why they changed.  It should be: what should the rules be now? Which is why I specifically made this post.

Response to killer:
2) It's not contradictory.  There have always been unwritten rules.  Again, there are so many loopholes to the rules currently that you would literally ragequit if I were to abuse them if I ever got to play you again.  For example, did you know that until literally 3 hours ago, that you were able to build on your opponents side (i.e. I'm able to build pylons to block your nexus from building at 2 minutes into the game), and you were able to block buildings using your probe near mm to fuck with opponents' building placements?

Hunting pylons/depots with ground is also frowned upon.  Or even production buildings in general.  Like cmon, you know this is a moot point to argue about.  There have always been "rules" people play by but aren't official.

[Admin]

any cliff notes for the past 3 pages? tldr

[thunder]

any cliff notes for the past 3 pages? tldr

TL;DR:

Kyu & Killer:  y u do dis?
Me: rules are no good
Kyu & Killer: cries
Me: use brain or gtfo

[surya]

[law[bf]]

The way I see it, there are only two feasible options that are both better than what we have now, in terms of the rush rule.
In addition, know that ZC NR MM is literally the ONLY melee game type in which players don't scout throughout the game.  Given the current rules, you are able to scout the opposing side by a non-army unit.  This should be practiced more... (I know I will be).

Define MM rush as when at least two players attack on the opposing side, with the intent to do

1) No rush MM + 1. No grace period. No -50% points mm rush rule.

2) No rush MM + 2. No grace period. No -50% points mm rush rule.

I like option 1.

Same

[thunder]

You havent been on law...

[law[bf]]

Need computer, killer can you share urs?

[DiscoveredCheck]

Triple teaming sounds sketchy. I like the current system, especially when you can just triple team the weakest player.

I don't know if it's allowed in the rules or not, but I think there should be an option for people to make a team of 3 players as long as the opposing team accepts the team and is willing to play them, without doing melee to decide. This will possibly get a few games in a row with same teams like a mini series with rematches. There are some players who don't mind playing with me and others that don't like playing with me. I'm sure we can get good games if I get 2 really good players that like me, on their team against 3 other normal playing pros. This could work with other low pros also.