Rules Discussion

[thunder]

ZCTour was once a powerhouse of experienced players.  However, that era has long passed.  The ZC community has ebbed and flowed throughout the many years, but has never been forgotten.  ZCLeague became the resurrection of the community that once was ZCTour.


It is now the year 2017.  ZC is, once again, in the process of revival, decided only by the players who comprise it.


This thread is for an open, educated discussion on the possibility of changing the official ZCL rules.  All participants of ZCL should have interest in this subject.

My thoughts:

I'm fine with the current Bombing and Overlord Hunting rules.  These rules are basically necessary for the map max mechanic, as they are OP.

Here are a few suggestions I have:

Change middle defense limits - unlimited sunk/spore, but keep the 3 hatch limit.  HOWEVER, I'm also considering something like: after 30 minutes, this reverts to only 3 sunk/spores mid.

(optional change, very liberal)
Hatchery limits - unlimited. In my mind, I  would think the smarter a player is, it would be a goal/option to try to reduce the amount of hatcheries the enemy has.

MM Rushing - 3 options: 
1) Remove the rule entirely.  The players who are able to have units at MM (the time limit) should be rewarded for their ability to make their base and units.
2) At minimum, the syntax of this rule should DEFINITELY be changed.  There are contradicting restrictions and loopholes at the same time. 
I.e. "If any unit attacking beyond the middle statue will be considered a DQ" - does this mean before mm or after mm in the grace period? So if I send 1 zealot im DQed. Can be abused.
Rules should be simplified to no rush MM.  +1 and grace period just adds ambiguity and room for abuse.
3) To simplifiy things, make it a flat NR MM +2. Remove the excess grace period etc.

Tripling - remove altogether.  A viable strategy should not be removed. This promotes and rewards teamwork on both sides.

Finally, Gametype - Original to Brood War. Why restrict ourselves?

Conclusion:
I proposed these rules to enhance the speed of gameplay and also motivate players to act quicker.  More volatility and aggression will pay off.  We are becoming too stale and lenient on the unsaid agreement of, "lets not attack until we've built everything, we are ready and mm+3".  There would be an adjustment period to these rules, but it would be for the betterment of the game.  These niche and specific rules will only inhibit new players to get better.  Make the rules succinct but generalized for anyone interested in playing ZC, while considering the mechanic of Map Max.

Post replies below!

[Admin]

rofl how long did it take you to come up with that intro

i think unlimited defense in mid is a bad idea. it would just make long games even longer.
if tripling is allowed, there is no point in going mid. just one click + 5 sets guards + 5 sets wraiths and there goes toss base

[thunder]

3 minutes.

At face value it may seem like a bad idea.  But I think we will see that the game will become more focused on winning through mid as a team. Unlimited D means that teams should be forcing to keep going mid to keep the count low.  Whichever team doesn't will be at a huge disadvantage (imagine 20 spores mid vs no hatcheries).  It will accelerate the game pace.  The way it is now is that you can re-hatch mid and it hard resets the game status.

So be it.  If one team wants to triple through a side, the other team has the choice of saving him/her or free push through mid. Let the fun begin

[BratiZbaK]

I agree with the tripple not sure about the unlimited d on middle

[killer]

Create a rule where certain aholes.. Just for sake of the argument let's call him yan can't fly certain aerial units.. Lets just go with wraiths.. To the enemy main.. For example the enemy command center and kill all their scvs.. Takes a real drunk psycho to do such a woman strategy.. Could lead to potential studs rage quitting

[FalcoNraideN]

Too many rules. Rules are like taxes, created to discourage progress in particular areas. Keep MM + 1, keep MM rush at half points.

Get rid of hatch requirement. Imo no hatches at all. That forces attention to mid and keep magic at mid.

[FalcoNraideN]

And i hate to admitt it but killer is right. Terran wraighs bombing each other is so stupid. Zero skill. Its like kicking someone in the nuts. Were not pubs, we harness higher gameplay elemental techniques so why use barbaric cheap tactics?

[StronGer]

Seems good but I would not allow the unlimited defence on middle. 3 hatcheries + 6 spores is a legit middle setup for both teams

[korean]to[]

fuck bw

[X_ExpertGamer_X]

no need to change what works my friends nr mm+1 is what we got. we dont do nr mm because most players are not ready and we have years to know this. thats why we added 1 min and in bw players were even more shit so it was nr mm+2 all these rules are set in place already from years of experience stop fucking with the system

[xS.SPLiFF]

I'd be happy to give input about this stuff, but the rules shouldn't be decided among the public, it should be decided by the staff. You'll always have people who disagree.
The  ZCTour rules were pretty legit. Some of the rules you guys have on here are really too specific and have too many penalties for shit that is pretty benign. You need a new staff member to help work this shit out?

[killer]

Thinking logically wraiths have such high movement speed and can go invisible. It seems to be little counter play to sending sets to enemy main. Turrets? Yeah that does nothing to wraiths they die in half a sec. overlords? Die asap. You would need a Protoss observer and pray that the ally p doesn't have an observer themself or even that does nothing. Impossible to stasis shit you can't see. You aren't allowed to attack main/supply with wraiths so why workers?


The Zerg overlord safety zone is very close.  It shouldn't be the zergs responsiblity to have to make spores to protect a main.. Which goes over the hatch limit and can't even reach around the main cause most terrans put supply a space from the wall cause scv gets stuck. For example you can't muta bomb a main but can fly mutas and evolve into guardian and kill main. Similar to a recall there is counter play.. Very little options when four sets of wraiths come to your main. At least with recalls or firebats it takes some skill but leaving wraiths on idle is ridiculous.

[law[bf]]

I totally agree with mi amigo frozen. 

ZCTour was once a powerhouse of experienced players.  However, that era has long passed.  The ZC community has ebbed and flowed throughout the many years, but has never been forgotten.  ZCLeague became the resurrection of the community that once was ZCTour.


It is now the year 2017.  ZC is, once again, in the process of revival, decided only by the players who comprise it.


This thread is for an open, educated discussion on the possibility of changing the official ZCL rules.  All participants of ZCL should have interest in this subject.

My thoughts:

I'm fine with the current Bombing and Overlord Hunting rules.  These rules are basically necessary for the map max mechanic, as they are OP.

Here are a few suggestions I have:

Change middle defense limits - unlimited sunk/spore, but keep the 3 hatch limit.  HOWEVER, I'm also considering something like: after 30 minutes, this reverts to only 3 sunk/spores mid.

(optional change, very liberal)
Hatchery limits - unlimited. In my mind, I  would think the smarter a player is, it would be a goal/option to try to reduce the amount of hatcheries the enemy has.

MM Rushing - 3 options: 
1) Remove the rule entirely.  The players who are able to have units at MM (the time limit) should be rewarded for their ability to make their base and units.
2) At minimum, the syntax of this rule should DEFINITELY be changed.  There are contradicting restrictions and loopholes at the same time. 
I.e. "If any unit attacking beyond the middle statue will be considered a DQ" - does this mean before mm or after mm in the grace period? So if I send 1 zealot im DQed. Can be abused.
Rules should be simplified to no rush MM.  +1 and grace period just adds ambiguity and room for abuse.
3) To simplifiy things, make it a flat NR MM +2. Remove the excess grace period etc.

Tripling - remove altogether.  A viable strategy should not be removed. This promotes and rewards teamwork on both sides.

Finally, Gametype - Original to Brood War. Why restrict ourselves?

Conclusion:
I proposed these rules to enhance the speed of gameplay and also motivate players to act quicker.  More volatility and aggression will pay off.  We are becoming too stale and lenient on the unsaid agreement of, "lets not attack until we've built everything, we are ready and mm+3".  There would be an adjustment period to these rules, but it would be for the betterment of the game.  These niche and specific rules will only inhibit new players to get better.  Make the rules succinct but generalized for anyone interested in playing ZC, while considering the mechanic of Map Max.

Post replies below!

[X_ExpertGamer_X]

if you cant stop wraiths at ur main u need to find another race noobie

[Mast-I-Kater]

Here is my 2 cents... not really an opinion... but rationale behind a lot of the rules.... since I was the one that implemented the original rules with ZCT (well, me, thatscrazy, and lefty). They have changed a tad bit over all of these years... but most of them are my writing, still in my words haha.

**I was never a big fan of more rules. I thought much like most of you are speaking... we are the best ZC players in the world... think about that for a second and really let that sink in. To me, a big part of being the best, is being able to adapt your playstyle in order to counter your opponent's playstyles. If you can't setup proper defenses and tactics in order to counter what your opponents are doing, then you should not be considered the best. However, during ZCT1, 2, 3, and 4, my sentiments were a huge overwhelming minority, and I felt that too many rules were being implemented, so I stepped down from admin due to the league going in a direction that I highly disagreed with. BUT, people loved the rules and the rules are a big part of what has helped the league stay around and keep ZC active since 2002. **

Most of the rules are created in order to mitigate "cheap tactics" i.e. huge reward for little effort, and very low risk.

Hatch Limits - The limits on middle defense, and hatches were implemented due to an old player named Meng. He would literally build mass spores all over the map. We are talking cover each wall 3-4 rows deep, and practically wall up the middle. The hatch limit was implemented around season 2-3 because zergs get so little larva early in the game, it became a rush to just get as many hatches out as possible in order to starve your opposing Z. SWFT was the big proponent of this strategy... and it turned into a problem having around 200-250 hatches on the map. Because then, NO ONE was able to build units and everyone would be around 150 psi and map would be maxed. So games would go on for 2hours. People would just revert to strategies of "I am willing to sit in my chair longer than you" lol. Keeping Z limited on spores/hatches/mid d keeps games shorter and more action packed. This is perhaps the 1 rule that I am 100% in favor of keeping.

Bombing - Bombing rules were implemented because Z players would frequently take 5 sets of mutas in and rape and pillage mains. Lots of times collecting 3 mains in one swoop. It used to be "no main bombing", then people would come in and hunt tech buildings, then it became "No main or tech hunting", then people would come in and waypoint attack supply depots and overloards and pylons, then it became... and so on. This is one of the rules that I was adamantly against because of how it kept getting added to as people were adapting to the rules and playing the game. IMO bombing is easy enough to counter... devote 1-2 temps and 1 arb, and 1 sci vessel to each main. 12 units across the team devoted to anti bombing, and your enemy is fucked if they try it. And then you have an easy counter. BUT then we figured out that MM favors later built buildings... so now rrans can easily replenish wraiths and bomb all they want... hence why rrans nowadays will fly wraiths to enemy mains and let them do whatever. Because they are easily replaced. So, the way bombing started... it was a huge risk because if you failed, your team was left to play 2v3 for a while. Now, wraiths can be reproduced so easily that bombing is a very low risk, and thus considered a cheaper tactic. However, having your Z setup 4 spores around your T main would counter this enough to dissuade ppl from doing it imo, so I am still keen on removing this rule. I am up in the air on overloard hunting though...

MM Rushes - The Megix rule haha. Megix perfected "The Blob" in which he would mass upgraded 1 1 1 with movement and range.. 200/200 lings and hydras at mm just to piss people off. I think he had something like a 95% success rate. He would win the match single handedly and there was nothing you could do. However, MM recalls were considered a viable tactic. If you could have a recall ready with enough PSI at 8min 10 seconds... that means you had to have made a smaller base. So there was a tradeoff here, and it took skill to pull off. Then rrans figured out how to make ghosts (I believe it was Lisa that perfected the ghosts at MM) and locked down the MM recalls. So, if you could pull off an MM recall, you deserved to win the game. It is a risky move. Megix' blob was just stupid lol... So we made it NrMM+1, but no one could still stop the Blob and we couldn't punish everyone for his behavior, so we just made MM rushes worth half the points to help discourage it. The whole 60-90seconds after MM+1 is a new rule to me... and that is just dumb imo lol

Tripling - I am 100% against this rule lol. It is extremely easily countered with stasis, temps, and help from your allies. It also creates an interesting decision making point in the game ... do you help your allie? Or do you hit middle and take middle and possibly the game? I have found that in almost every case of this happening. It is ALWAYS in your best interest to help your allie.... plus if your Z is doing his job, then you should be able to see a triple coming WAYYY before it happens. It requires teamwork in order to beat teamwork. Pulling a triple is a high risk, high reward move. 1 triple can easily end a game in either sides favor. This whole nonsense about 2 players going through middle and then the 3rd coming over the wall counting as a triple is dumb... That is just 2 players cutting off your opponent's help from their 2 players, while creating a 2 front attack at the same time. A team would already need to have broken middle to get to this point, they are now just holding their push while the 3rd player creates another attack point. 100% viable imo.

To me... less is more... fewer rules creates more creativity in the game and forces players to learn the game and adapt. But, with that said... there was no greater time in SC history where ZC was so prevalent than when rules became standardized and ZCT formed. Imo ZC has lasted through the years BECAUSE of the standardized ZCT and ZCL leagues. So there is something to them... Do we want to prioritize player skill and creative games, or do we want to prioritize overall activity?