ZCTour was once a powerhouse of experienced players. However, that era has long passed. The ZC community has ebbed and flowed throughout the many years, but has never been forgotten. ZCLeague became the resurrection of the community that once was ZCTour.
It is now the year 2017. ZC is, once again, in the process of revival, decided only by the players who comprise it.
This thread is for an open, educated discussion on the possibility of changing the official ZCL rules. All participants of ZCL should have interest in this subject.
My thoughts:
I'm fine with the current Bombing and Overlord Hunting rules. These rules are basically necessary for the map max mechanic, as they are OP.
Here are a few suggestions I have:
Change middle defense limits - unlimited sunk/spore, but keep the 3 hatch limit. HOWEVER, I'm also considering something like: after 30 minutes, this reverts to only 3 sunk/spores mid.
(optional change, very liberal)
Hatchery limits - unlimited. In my mind, I would think the smarter a player is, it would be a goal/option to try to reduce the amount of hatcheries the enemy has.
MM Rushing - 3 options:
1) Remove the rule entirely. The players who are able to have units at MM (the time limit) should be rewarded for their ability to make their base and units.
2) At minimum, the syntax of this rule should DEFINITELY be changed. There are contradicting restrictions and loopholes at the same time.
I.e. "If any unit attacking beyond the middle statue will be considered a DQ" - does this mean before mm or after mm in the grace period? So if I send 1 zealot im DQed. Can be abused.
Rules should be simplified to no rush MM. +1 and grace period just adds ambiguity and room for abuse.
3) To simplifiy things, make it a flat NR MM +2. Remove the excess grace period etc.
Tripling - remove altogether. A viable strategy should not be removed. This promotes and rewards teamwork on both sides.
Finally, Gametype - Original to Brood War. Why restrict ourselves?
Conclusion:
I proposed these rules to enhance the speed of gameplay and also motivate players to act quicker. More volatility and aggression will pay off. We are becoming too stale and lenient on the unsaid agreement of, "lets not attack until we've built everything, we are ready and mm+3". There would be an adjustment period to these rules, but it would be for the betterment of the game. These niche and specific rules will only inhibit new players to get better. Make the rules succinct but generalized for anyone interested in playing ZC, while considering the mechanic of Map Max.
Post replies below!
rofl how long did it take you to come up with that intro
i think unlimited defense in mid is a bad idea. it would just make long games even longer.
if tripling is allowed, there is no point in going mid. just one click + 5 sets guards + 5 sets wraiths and there goes toss base
3 minutes.
At face value it may seem like a bad idea. But I think we will see that the game will become more focused on winning through mid as a team. Unlimited D means that teams should be forcing to keep going mid to keep the count low. Whichever team doesn't will be at a huge disadvantage (imagine 20 spores mid vs no hatcheries). It will accelerate the game pace. The way it is now is that you can re-hatch mid and it hard resets the game status.
So be it. If one team wants to triple through a side, the other team has the choice of saving him/her or free push through mid. Let the fun begin
I agree with the tripple not sure about the unlimited d on middle
Create a rule where certain aholes.. Just for sake of the argument let's call him yan can't fly certain aerial units.. Lets just go with wraiths.. To the enemy main.. For example the enemy command center and kill all their scvs.. Takes a real drunk psycho to do such a woman strategy.. Could lead to potential studs rage quitting
Too many rules. Rules are like taxes, created to discourage progress in particular areas. Keep MM + 1, keep MM rush at half points.
Get rid of hatch requirement. Imo no hatches at all. That forces attention to mid and keep magic at mid.
And i hate to admitt it but killer is right. Terran wraighs bombing each other is so stupid. Zero skill. Its like kicking someone in the nuts. Were not pubs, we harness higher gameplay elemental techniques so why use barbaric cheap tactics?
Seems good but I would not allow the unlimited defence on middle. 3 hatcheries + 6 spores is a legit middle setup for both teams
fuck bw
no need to change what works my friends nr mm+1 is what we got. we dont do nr mm because most players are not ready and we have years to know this. thats why we added 1 min and in bw players were even more shit so it was nr mm+2 all these rules are set in place already from years of experience stop fucking with the system
I'd be happy to give input about this stuff, but the rules shouldn't be decided among the public, it should be decided by the staff. You'll always have people who disagree.
The ZCTour rules were pretty legit. Some of the rules you guys have on here are really too specific and have too many penalties for shit that is pretty benign. You need a new staff member to help work this shit out?
Thinking logically wraiths have such high movement speed and can go invisible. It seems to be little counter play to sending sets to enemy main. Turrets? Yeah that does nothing to wraiths they die in half a sec. overlords? Die asap. You would need a Protoss observer and pray that the ally p doesn't have an observer themself or even that does nothing. Impossible to stasis shit you can't see. You aren't allowed to attack main/supply with wraiths so why workers?
The Zerg overlord safety zone is very close. It shouldn't be the zergs responsiblity to have to make spores to protect a main.. Which goes over the hatch limit and can't even reach around the main cause most terrans put supply a space from the wall cause scv gets stuck. For example you can't muta bomb a main but can fly mutas and evolve into guardian and kill main. Similar to a recall there is counter play.. Very little options when four sets of wraiths come to your main. At least with recalls or firebats it takes some skill but leaving wraiths on idle is ridiculous.
I totally agree with mi amigo frozen.
Quote from: thunder on June 05, 2017, 06:36:57 PM
ZCTour was once a powerhouse of experienced players. However, that era has long passed. The ZC community has ebbed and flowed throughout the many years, but has never been forgotten. ZCLeague became the resurrection of the community that once was ZCTour.
It is now the year 2017. ZC is, once again, in the process of revival, decided only by the players who comprise it.
This thread is for an open, educated discussion on the possibility of changing the official ZCL rules. All participants of ZCL should have interest in this subject.
My thoughts:
I'm fine with the current Bombing and Overlord Hunting rules. These rules are basically necessary for the map max mechanic, as they are OP.
Here are a few suggestions I have:
Change middle defense limits - unlimited sunk/spore, but keep the 3 hatch limit. HOWEVER, I'm also considering something like: after 30 minutes, this reverts to only 3 sunk/spores mid.
(optional change, very liberal)
Hatchery limits - unlimited. In my mind, I would think the smarter a player is, it would be a goal/option to try to reduce the amount of hatcheries the enemy has.
MM Rushing - 3 options:
1) Remove the rule entirely. The players who are able to have units at MM (the time limit) should be rewarded for their ability to make their base and units.
2) At minimum, the syntax of this rule should DEFINITELY be changed. There are contradicting restrictions and loopholes at the same time.
I.e. "If any unit attacking beyond the middle statue will be considered a DQ" - does this mean before mm or after mm in the grace period? So if I send 1 zealot im DQed. Can be abused.
Rules should be simplified to no rush MM. +1 and grace period just adds ambiguity and room for abuse.
3) To simplifiy things, make it a flat NR MM +2. Remove the excess grace period etc.
Tripling - remove altogether. A viable strategy should not be removed. This promotes and rewards teamwork on both sides.
Finally, Gametype - Original to Brood War. Why restrict ourselves?
Conclusion:
I proposed these rules to enhance the speed of gameplay and also motivate players to act quicker. More volatility and aggression will pay off. We are becoming too stale and lenient on the unsaid agreement of, "lets not attack until we've built everything, we are ready and mm+3". There would be an adjustment period to these rules, but it would be for the betterment of the game. These niche and specific rules will only inhibit new players to get better. Make the rules succinct but generalized for anyone interested in playing ZC, while considering the mechanic of Map Max.
Post replies below!
if you cant stop wraiths at ur main u need to find another race noobie
Here is my 2 cents... not really an opinion... but rationale behind a lot of the rules.... since I was the one that implemented the original rules with ZCT (well, me, thatscrazy, and lefty). They have changed a tad bit over all of these years... but most of them are my writing, still in my words haha.
**I was never a big fan of more rules. I thought much like most of you are speaking... we are the best ZC players in the world... think about that for a second and really let that sink in. To me, a big part of being the best, is being able to adapt your playstyle in order to counter your opponent's playstyles. If you can't setup proper defenses and tactics in order to counter what your opponents are doing, then you should not be considered the best. However, during ZCT1, 2, 3, and 4, my sentiments were a huge overwhelming minority, and I felt that too many rules were being implemented, so I stepped down from admin due to the league going in a direction that I highly disagreed with. BUT, people loved the rules and the rules are a big part of what has helped the league stay around and keep ZC active since 2002. **
Most of the rules are created in order to mitigate "cheap tactics" i.e. huge reward for little effort, and very low risk.
Hatch Limits - The limits on middle defense, and hatches were implemented due to an old player named Meng. He would literally build mass spores all over the map. We are talking cover each wall 3-4 rows deep, and practically wall up the middle. The hatch limit was implemented around season 2-3 because zergs get so little larva early in the game, it became a rush to just get as many hatches out as possible in order to starve your opposing Z. SWFT was the big proponent of this strategy... and it turned into a problem having around 200-250 hatches on the map. Because then, NO ONE was able to build units and everyone would be around 150 psi and map would be maxed. So games would go on for 2hours. People would just revert to strategies of "I am willing to sit in my chair longer than you" lol. Keeping Z limited on spores/hatches/mid d keeps games shorter and more action packed. This is perhaps the 1 rule that I am 100% in favor of keeping.
Bombing - Bombing rules were implemented because Z players would frequently take 5 sets of mutas in and rape and pillage mains. Lots of times collecting 3 mains in one swoop. It used to be "no main bombing", then people would come in and hunt tech buildings, then it became "No main or tech hunting", then people would come in and waypoint attack supply depots and overloards and pylons, then it became... and so on. This is one of the rules that I was adamantly against because of how it kept getting added to as people were adapting to the rules and playing the game. IMO bombing is easy enough to counter... devote 1-2 temps and 1 arb, and 1 sci vessel to each main. 12 units across the team devoted to anti bombing, and your enemy is fucked if they try it. And then you have an easy counter. BUT then we figured out that MM favors later built buildings... so now rrans can easily replenish wraiths and bomb all they want... hence why rrans nowadays will fly wraiths to enemy mains and let them do whatever. Because they are easily replaced. So, the way bombing started... it was a huge risk because if you failed, your team was left to play 2v3 for a while. Now, wraiths can be reproduced so easily that bombing is a very low risk, and thus considered a cheaper tactic. However, having your Z setup 4 spores around your T main would counter this enough to dissuade ppl from doing it imo, so I am still keen on removing this rule. I am up in the air on overloard hunting though...
MM Rushes - The Megix rule haha. Megix perfected "The Blob" in which he would mass upgraded 1 1 1 with movement and range.. 200/200 lings and hydras at mm just to piss people off. I think he had something like a 95% success rate. He would win the match single handedly and there was nothing you could do. However, MM recalls were considered a viable tactic. If you could have a recall ready with enough PSI at 8min 10 seconds... that means you had to have made a smaller base. So there was a tradeoff here, and it took skill to pull off. Then rrans figured out how to make ghosts (I believe it was Lisa that perfected the ghosts at MM) and locked down the MM recalls. So, if you could pull off an MM recall, you deserved to win the game. It is a risky move. Megix' blob was just stupid lol... So we made it NrMM+1, but no one could still stop the Blob and we couldn't punish everyone for his behavior, so we just made MM rushes worth half the points to help discourage it. The whole 60-90seconds after MM+1 is a new rule to me... and that is just dumb imo lol
Tripling - I am 100% against this rule lol. It is extremely easily countered with stasis, temps, and help from your allies. It also creates an interesting decision making point in the game ... do you help your allie? Or do you hit middle and take middle and possibly the game? I have found that in almost every case of this happening. It is ALWAYS in your best interest to help your allie.... plus if your Z is doing his job, then you should be able to see a triple coming WAYYY before it happens. It requires teamwork in order to beat teamwork. Pulling a triple is a high risk, high reward move. 1 triple can easily end a game in either sides favor. This whole nonsense about 2 players going through middle and then the 3rd coming over the wall counting as a triple is dumb... That is just 2 players cutting off your opponent's help from their 2 players, while creating a 2 front attack at the same time. A team would already need to have broken middle to get to this point, they are now just holding their push while the 3rd player creates another attack point. 100% viable imo.
To me... less is more... fewer rules creates more creativity in the game and forces players to learn the game and adapt. But, with that said... there was no greater time in SC history where ZC was so prevalent than when rules became standardized and ZCT formed. Imo ZC has lasted through the years BECAUSE of the standardized ZCT and ZCL leagues. So there is something to them... Do we want to prioritize player skill and creative games, or do we want to prioritize overall activity?
Yes Tyler, spill that tea giiiirl
One topic I would like to discuss is the MM Rushing:
I think there's a misunderstanding on the MM rushing part. We play ZC NR MM+1, the rule states 60-90 secsAFTER MM not AFTER MM+1. Or maybe you guys want me to rephrase that is 30 secs after +1 Map max? But the reason for that grace period is to determine if a map max tactic is being used or not to leverage half the points or full points. I think that's where players are forgetting about the point system. Unless, you guys include any attacks crossing the status after MM and before +1 to be considered a map max rush? That's what I would suggest if there was going to be any rule changes for map max rushing. Map max rushing should be defined as actually map max rushing when the map maxes.
Recommendation: Any attack/magic unit crossing the statue between map max and +1 is considered a map max rush and will only be considered 50% points.
Hatch Limit: Leave as is, no limit would make games longer.
Bombing: No changes.
Tripling: Removing this rule creates more teamwork in this game, I do not mind removing it but must be discussed before any finalizations.
OG to BW: I would suggest the 4/6 rule, if 4/6 people want to play BW instead in the ZC game, they may do so.
People who sit and wait around during games is up to them, players play base on their style, if they were innovators to this game, it was probably done 10-15 years ago. Overall, Like mast-i-kaTer said, I think at this time of age, priority should be keeping activity high, skill takes time, and creativity was done during ZCT/pre ZCT days.
Me and Myst will probably add one more admin/judge in the future if required, but at this time Me and Myst are current admins/judges as well as Lisa being the other judge.
I personally do not think we need a massive overhaul of rules. There are some with ambiguous language, like the mm rush rule, but other than that, the rules worked for the longest time without that much trouble. I understand the urge to change, but I do not know if they will make the game better. We have pretty good activity, and people are coming back, so I don't think the argument "we need to change rules, so we can increase activity" is a valid argument.
As a player who came in during the latter half of zct through the end of zcl, I do not like it when we build for 8 mins, and for other team to mm rush. That's no fun. I do like how mm rushes are rewarded 50% of the points because it is a cheap tactic. The 60-90 sec grace period, I get, but we should definitely change the rule BACK to what it was (which was it must be a controlled attack by all three members) to allow temp drops, mm +1 rcs, etc.
I don't see a reason to change terrans from wraith bombing opposite mins. It keeps the other terran busy, and it is pretty easy to counter. The terran who sends their wraiths to attack mins are also wasting their units.
I do think unlimited middle d and unlimited hatches are terrible ideas. There is nothing wrong with our system now. As to reply to Spliff's statement that rule changes should not be open to the public, but to a certain few, how are you going to choose the few? There are old timers coming back; there are people who have been through zct and zcl; and there are people who are just starting. Why don't we play a few seasons with these new groups, and then see which rules do not work and need changes?
A response to Jay:
The grace period of 60-90 sec after MM is a good rule, but again, the language of the rules as CURRENTLY state is not how most of us (the players who have been through zct and zcl) knew it as. It never used to be that if a protoss rcs or temp drops at 913 if mm was 812 it was a mm rush. That rule is new to most of us, and we were unaware because the previous rule used to be that all three people had to attack for it to be considered as mm rush. Let's make it how it used to be? I'll bump the thread where it has the language of the rule before the current rule.
Quote from: korean]to[ on June 06, 2017, 10:30:45 AM
A response to Jay:
The grace period of 60-90 sec after MM is a good rule, but again, the language of the rules as CURRENTLY state is not how most of us (the players who have been through zct and zcl) knew it as. It never used to be that if a protoss rcs or temp drops at 913 if mm was 812 it was a mm rush. That rule is new to most of us, and we were unaware because the previous rule used to be that all three people had to attack for it to be considered as mm rush. Let's make it how it used to be? I'll bump the thread where it has the language of the rule before the current rule.
To clarify what MM rushing is with example prior to current MM rushing rule:
MM Rushing
- MM Rushing is allowed, but will receive 50% points of full win.
- MM rush grace period of 60-90 seconds
ex) MM 830, anytime between 930-1000 is considered MM RUSH- Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle before 60 seconds is a disqualification.
- Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle in between 60-90 seconds is considered a MM Rush.
- Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle after the grace period is considered a full game loss/win
Yes, exactly. The example says a MM rush anytime between 930-1000 if mm is 830 is considered a mm rush. THEN the second bullet point after that DEFINES what MM rush is, which is defined as "Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle in between 60-90 seconds is considered a MM Rush."
So that example would indicate that a controlled attack of 10 units per team member is a mm rush, not when a protoss, terran, or zerg attacks alone.
Quote from: Pr1meIVI on June 06, 2017, 10:42:58 AM
Quote from: korean]to[ on June 06, 2017, 10:30:45 AM
A response to Jay:
The grace period of 60-90 sec after MM is a good rule, but again, the language of the rules as CURRENTLY state is not how most of us (the players who have been through zct and zcl) knew it as. It never used to be that if a protoss rcs or temp drops at 913 if mm was 812 it was a mm rush. That rule is new to most of us, and we were unaware because the previous rule used to be that all three people had to attack for it to be considered as mm rush. Let's make it how it used to be? I'll bump the thread where it has the language of the rule before the current rule.
To clarify what MM rushing is with example prior to current MM rushing rule:
MM Rushing
- MM Rushing is allowed, but will receive 50% points of full win.
- MM rush grace period of 60-90 seconds
ex) MM 830, anytime between 930-1000 is considered MM RUSH
- Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle before 60 seconds is a disqualification.
- Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle in between 60-90 seconds is considered a MM Rush.
- Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle after the grace period is considered a full game loss/win
Dude make it simpler, after mm+1 you con do whatever, without discounting points, full win. Everyone should be ready at mm+1. Make the players mqke the strategy choices, go mid at mm+1, rc at mm+1, drop at mm+1, etc. Every strategy has pro and contras. If a zerg go with hydras at mm+1 , the zerg ll have a poor main d, like 1 row less, and whatever
Seriously these rules are for stupid players that cant adjut their games.
I think it should be nr mm +75 seconds
Quote from: law[bf] on June 06, 2017, 11:25:53 AM
Quote from: Pr1meIVI on June 06, 2017, 10:42:58 AM
Quote from: korean]to[ on June 06, 2017, 10:30:45 AM
A response to Jay:
The grace period of 60-90 sec after MM is a good rule, but again, the language of the rules as CURRENTLY state is not how most of us (the players who have been through zct and zcl) knew it as. It never used to be that if a protoss rcs or temp drops at 913 if mm was 812 it was a mm rush. That rule is new to most of us, and we were unaware because the previous rule used to be that all three people had to attack for it to be considered as mm rush. Let's make it how it used to be? I'll bump the thread where it has the language of the rule before the current rule.
To clarify what MM rushing is with example prior to current MM rushing rule:
MM Rushing
- MM Rushing is allowed, but will receive 50% points of full win.
- MM rush grace period of 60-90 seconds
ex) MM 830, anytime between 930-1000 is considered MM RUSH
- Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle before 60 seconds is a disqualification.
- Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle in between 60-90 seconds is considered a MM Rush.
- Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle after the grace period is considered a full game loss/win
Dude make it simpler, after mm+1 you con do whatever, without discounting points, full win. Everyone should be ready at mm+1. Make the players mqke the strategy choices, go mid at mm+1, rc at mm+1, drop at mm+1, etc. Every strategy has pro and contras. If a zerg go with hydras at mm+1 , the zerg ll have a poor main d, like 1 row less, and whatever
Seriously these rules are for stupid players that cant adjut their games.
I'm not disagreeing at all, but does that mean we remove the term mm rush altogether? And after mm+1 is either full win/loss..
It's true, every action has its pros or cons, it'll make scouting a more important to this game if that's the case. Should we then make another rule for scouting?
I think this would put more emphasis on units after mm instead of base definitely but I still want to hear more input.
Quote from: Pr1meIVI on June 06, 2017, 10:42:58 AM
To clarify what MM rushing is with example prior to current MM rushing rule:
MM Rushing
- MM Rushing is allowed, but will receive 50% points of full win.
- MM rush grace period of 60-90 seconds
ex) MM 830, anytime between 930-1000 is considered MM RUSH
- Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle before 60 seconds is a disqualification.
- Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle in between 60-90 seconds is considered a MM Rush.
- Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle after the grace period is considered a full game loss/win
It makes sense... the 30 seconds after MM+1 is just there in the rules so that you can define what a "MM Rush" is for scoring purposes. I think it is just a little convoluted and confusing due to the wording.
ZC used to be NRMM. Then too many people started MM rushing... so the +1 gradually took over as the default to inhibit MM rushes. Now... we are defining an "MM Rush" as an "MM+1 Rush" which is the 30 second "grace period". IMO to make it more understandable, make it NAMM+1 (No Attack until Map Max +1). It sounds like most are in agreeance on how the rule is SUPPOSED to work... it is just confusingly worded.
I like the way it is written out in the example that I quoted from Primus. But the bottom part of the "10 units per team member" makes it so that 2 people could attack all out, but the 3rd stay home until after the "grace period" and it wouldn't be classified as half points.
lets just make it nr 20 again boys for all the slow new players?
Quote from: X_ExpertGamer_X on June 06, 2017, 12:22:04 PM
lets just make it nr 20 again boys for all the slow new players?
I am down for that! Might give me a chance haha
In all seriousness though... just get rid of the "NRMM+1" rule and make it NRMM... the 1min will be the "MMRUSH 50% points" time period. If anyone wants to attack within that time period... kudos, but you get 50% of the points. Your choice. Simple. Effective.
Quote from: Mast-I-Kater on June 06, 2017, 08:34:10 AM
Here is my 2 cents... not really an opinion... but rationale behind a lot of the rules.... since I was the one that implemented the original rules with ZCT (well, me, thatscrazy, and lefty). They have changed a tad bit over all of these years... but most of them are my writing, still in my words haha.
**I was never a big fan of more rules. I thought much like most of you are speaking... we are the best ZC players in the world... think about that for a second and really let that sink in. To me, a big part of being the best, is being able to adapt your playstyle in order to counter your opponent's playstyles. If you can't setup proper defenses and tactics in order to counter what your opponents are doing, then you should not be considered the best. However, during ZCT1, 2, 3, and 4, my sentiments were a huge overwhelming minority, and I felt that too many rules were being implemented, so I stepped down from admin due to the league going in a direction that I highly disagreed with. BUT, people loved the rules and the rules are a big part of what has helped the league stay around and keep ZC active since 2002. **
Most of the rules are created in order to mitigate "cheap tactics" i.e. huge reward for little effort, and very low risk.
Hatch Limits - The limits on middle defense, and hatches were implemented due to an old player named Meng. He would literally build mass spores all over the map. We are talking cover each wall 3-4 rows deep, and practically wall up the middle. The hatch limit was implemented around season 2-3 because zergs get so little larva early in the game, it became a rush to just get as many hatches out as possible in order to starve your opposing Z. SWFT was the big proponent of this strategy... and it turned into a problem having around 200-250 hatches on the map. Because then, NO ONE was able to build units and everyone would be around 150 psi and map would be maxed. So games would go on for 2hours. People would just revert to strategies of "I am willing to sit in my chair longer than you" lol. Keeping Z limited on spores/hatches/mid d keeps games shorter and more action packed. This is perhaps the 1 rule that I am 100% in favor of keeping.
Bombing - Bombing rules were implemented because Z players would frequently take 5 sets of mutas in and rape and pillage mains. Lots of times collecting 3 mains in one swoop. It used to be "no main bombing", then people would come in and hunt tech buildings, then it became "No main or tech hunting", then people would come in and waypoint attack supply depots and overloards and pylons, then it became... and so on. This is one of the rules that I was adamantly against because of how it kept getting added to as people were adapting to the rules and playing the game. IMO bombing is easy enough to counter... devote 1-2 temps and 1 arb, and 1 sci vessel to each main. 12 units across the team devoted to anti bombing, and your enemy is fucked if they try it. And then you have an easy counter. BUT then we figured out that MM favors later built buildings... so now rrans can easily replenish wraiths and bomb all they want... hence why rrans nowadays will fly wraiths to enemy mains and let them do whatever. Because they are easily replaced. So, the way bombing started... it was a huge risk because if you failed, your team was left to play 2v3 for a while. Now, wraiths can be reproduced so easily that bombing is a very low risk, and thus considered a cheaper tactic. However, having your Z setup 4 spores around your T main would counter this enough to dissuade ppl from doing it imo, so I am still keen on removing this rule. I am up in the air on overloard hunting though...
MM Rushes - The Megix rule haha. Megix perfected "The Blob" in which he would mass upgraded 1 1 1 with movement and range.. 200/200 lings and hydras at mm just to piss people off. I think he had something like a 95% success rate. He would win the match single handedly and there was nothing you could do. However, MM recalls were considered a viable tactic. If you could have a recall ready with enough PSI at 8min 10 seconds... that means you had to have made a smaller base. So there was a tradeoff here, and it took skill to pull off. Then rrans figured out how to make ghosts (I believe it was Lisa that perfected the ghosts at MM) and locked down the MM recalls. So, if you could pull off an MM recall, you deserved to win the game. It is a risky move. Megix' blob was just stupid lol... So we made it NrMM+1, but no one could still stop the Blob and we couldn't punish everyone for his behavior, so we just made MM rushes worth half the points to help discourage it. The whole 60-90seconds after MM+1 is a new rule to me... and that is just dumb imo lol
Tripling - I am 100% against this rule lol. It is extremely easily countered with stasis, temps, and help from your allies. It also creates an interesting decision making point in the game ... do you help your allie? Or do you hit middle and take middle and possibly the game? I have found that in almost every case of this happening. It is ALWAYS in your best interest to help your allie.... plus if your Z is doing his job, then you should be able to see a triple coming WAYYY before it happens. It requires teamwork in order to beat teamwork. Pulling a triple is a high risk, high reward move. 1 triple can easily end a game in either sides favor. This whole nonsense about 2 players going through middle and then the 3rd coming over the wall counting as a triple is dumb... That is just 2 players cutting off your opponent's help from their 2 players, while creating a 2 front attack at the same time. A team would already need to have broken middle to get to this point, they are now just holding their push while the 3rd player creates another attack point. 100% viable imo.
To me... less is more... fewer rules creates more creativity in the game and forces players to learn the game and adapt. But, with that said... there was no greater time in SC history where ZC was so prevalent than when rules became standardized and ZCT formed. Imo ZC has lasted through the years BECAUSE of the standardized ZCT and ZCL leagues. So there is something to them... Do we want to prioritize player skill and creative games, or do we want to prioritize overall activity?
I completely agree with you. In addition, you actually provide good insight on your reasoning as opposed to just giving one-sentence answers. I think with more freedom there will be more volatility in playstyles and it will lead to more intense games.
What is this nonsense! Why encourage this? The best players can make both a full base and have plenty of units it is what differentiates noobs from the best. You are going to punish people that make nice bases and have little units. ANYBODY could be maxed by mm. That is not a skill. But having a good base along with it is the talent. You will never have ANY ggs where people have to sacrifice full units for no base. The average game will be 15 mins. Everyone should have the chance to protect their main and set up defense. No they shouldn't have forever to do it but at the very minimum mm +1. This would give Protoss a HUGE advantage since they are always prepared to go on the offensive quickly whereas Terran has to wait for emp/lockdown/siege to upgrade and energy and Zerg makes units and main d in that time. AT MM. Zerg and Terran focus more on base than Protoss does. Build late starports and hatches towards the end of mm. That's what makes the game fun. It is an art to make a nice base. Every race should have a fair chance to defend themselves. Why would anyone want to play a game with a shitty base to be maxed at mm.. Then the rest of the game is boring.......
Obviously any P player would love this but the other races no. You people are trying to create what was once a skillful game into a joke. It was obvious to see who the more skillful players were. Any idiot can get plenty of units and rush mid asap. People like law and gamer do it 90% of the time. Does that make them good? No it does not. That defeats the purpose of why I even liked this game in the first place. Say and surya were gods in my eyes because they would know when to recall and dodge emp and do it all. Not as quickly as the rules permitted but at ANY time. Jake mastered the mm rc and people knew it was coming and still couldn't stop it. It is simple to build a mm rc base for Protoss it doesn't change much. You would have to COMPLETELY change the Terran/Zerg build in order to protect a mm rc that is just SO stupid and impossible. It seems most of the people playing now main Protoss but the other races are at a extreme disadvantage when applying these rules.
I don't even get why anyone would mm rush. It's basically admitting you are terrible at the game and admitting you have no chance of winning so have to play cheap to not ruin your record. Or oh shit I gotta go in 30 mins so I'm just going to mm rush. That is so stupid..... Mm rushes shouldn't even be a thing. If a team was to mm rush they should tell the other team they are so the game is balanced. If 3 noobs beat 3 elite players by mm rushing that is not a upset.. It is the most pussy shit...... It requires ZERO skill to make hydras and upgrade and Protoss to max and upgrade. ZERO. They shouldn't even receive half points. When people show replays of the best games NEVER ONCE will it ever be a mm rush.. With maybe an exception being if the other team knows it's coming and can defend then it's fun. But when completely surprised with 300 units coming at you it's retarded. The game is supposed to be played a certain way. Be fair to all races. I wouldn't change the rules at all just minor things not something that drastic.
Quote from: killer on June 06, 2017, 04:13:08 PM
What is this nonsense! Why encourage this? The best players can make both a full base and have plenty of units it is what differentiates noobs from the best. You are going to punish people that make nice bases and have little units. ANYBODY could be maxed by mm. That is not a skill. But having a good base along with it is the talent. You will never have ANY ggs where people have to sacrifice full units for no base. The average game will be 15 mins. Everyone should have the chance to protect their main and set up defense. No they shouldn't have forever to do it but at the very minimum mm +1. This would give Protoss a HUGE advantage since they are always prepared to go on the offensive quickly whereas Terran has to wait for emp/lockdown/siege to upgrade and energy and Zerg makes units and main d in that time. AT MM. Zerg and Terran focus more on base than Protoss does. Build late starports and hatches towards the end of mm. That's what makes the game fun. It is an art to make a nice base. Every race should have a fair chance to defend themselves. Why would anyone want to play a game with a shitty base to be maxed at mm.. Then the rest of the game is boring.......
Obviously any P player would love this but the other races no. You people are trying to create what was once a skillful game into a joke. It was obvious to see who the more skillful players were. Any idiot can get plenty of units and rush mid asap. People like law and gamer do it 90% of the time. Does that make them good? No it does not. That defeats the purpose of why I even liked this game in the first place. Say and surya were gods in my eyes because they would know when to recall and dodge emp and do it all. Not as quickly as the rules permitted but at ANY time. Jake mastered the mm rc and people knew it was coming and still couldn't stop it. It is simple to build a mm rc base for Protoss it doesn't change much. You would have to COMPLETELY change the Terran/Zerg build in order to protect a mm rc that is just SO stupid and impossible. It seems most of the people playing now main Protoss but the other races are at a extreme disadvantage when applying these rules.
I don't even get why anyone would mm rush. It's basically admitting you are terrible at the game and admitting you have no chance of winning so have to play cheap to not ruin your record. Or oh shit I gotta go in 30 mins so I'm just going to mm rush. That is so stupid..... Mm rushes shouldn't even be a thing. If a team was to mm rush they should tell the other team they are so the game is balanced. If 3 noobs beat 3 elite players by mm rushing that is not a upset.. It is the most pussy shit...... It requires ZERO skill to make hydras and upgrade and Protoss to max and upgrade. ZERO. They shouldn't even receive half points. When people show replays of the best games NEVER ONCE will it ever be a mm rush.. With maybe an exception being if the other team knows it's coming and can defend then it's fun. But when completely surprised with 300 units coming at you it's retarded. The game is supposed to be played a certain way. Be fair to all races. I wouldn't change the rules at all just minor things not something that drastic.
Moron
Haha moron. I guess I am. Anyone that has played even just ONE game with you or gamer knows the way you play. Every cheap tactic in the book. I would rather not play the game at all than play with you. Just my personal opinion. You and gamer have played the game more than anybody yet neither have been considered anywhere near the top. Only when nobody plays and as a joke "law is top 5." But expert has always had some lesbian crush on me and broke several monitors/keyboards because of me so I'll stop. The point is the game is meant to be played a certain way and I don't think the rules should deviate from it. You can do whatever you want law idc I've learned my lesson many times to stay far away from you. Greetings
Quote from: killer on June 06, 2017, 04:52:35 PM
Haha moron. I guess I am. Anyone that has played even just ONE game with you or gamer knows the way you play. Every cheap tactic in the book. I would rather not play the game at all than play with you. Just my personal opinion. You and gamer have played the game more than anybody yet neither have been considered anywhere near the top. Only when nobody plays and as a joke "law is top 5." But expert has always had some lesbian crush on me and broke several monitors/keyboards because of me so I'll stop. The point is the game is meant to be played a certain way and I don't think the rules should deviate from it. You can do whatever you want law idc I've learned my lesson many times to stay far away from you. Greetings
Moron
Quote from: killer on June 06, 2017, 04:52:35 PM
Haha moron. I guess I am. Anyone that has played even just ONE game with you or gamer knows the way you play. Every cheap tactic in the book. I would rather not play the game at all than play with you. Just my personal opinion. You and gamer have played the game more than anybody yet neither have been considered anywhere near the top. Only when nobody plays and as a joke "law is top 5." But expert has always had some lesbian crush on me and broke several monitors/keyboards because of me so I'll stop. The point is the game is meant to be played a certain way and I don't think the rules should deviate from it. You can do whatever you want law idc I've learned my lesson many times to stay far away from you. Greetings
I personally think we can keep the MM+1 rule as is, but the grace period must be removed. It's basically NR MM+3 with that rule in place. The rule used to always be NR MM+1 in ZCT, I believe.
Rules shouldn't be in place to give everyone a pillow while some people have their knives already out for a fight.
Quote from: thunder on June 06, 2017, 06:27:29 PM
Quote from: killer on June 06, 2017, 04:52:35 PM
Haha moron. I guess I am. Anyone that has played even just ONE game with you or gamer knows the way you play. Every cheap tactic in the book. I would rather not play the game at all than play with you. Just my personal opinion. You and gamer have played the game more than anybody yet neither have been considered anywhere near the top. Only when nobody plays and as a joke "law is top 5." But expert has always had some lesbian crush on me and broke several monitors/keyboards because of me so I'll stop. The point is the game is meant to be played a certain way and I don't think the rules should deviate from it. You can do whatever you want law idc I've learned my lesson many times to stay far away from you. Greetings
I personally think we can keep the MM+1 rule as is, but the grace period must be removed. It's basically NR MM+3 with that rule in place. The rule used to always be NR MM+1 in ZCT, I believe.
Rules shouldn't be in place to give everyone a pillow while some people have their knives already out for a fight.
The grace period makes it NRMM+1.5
To Killer's retarded comments.... If someone is MM recalling you... they have to have 150 energy to do it. Your allie P should be able to have 100 energy and stasis upg to stop it. Also, Lisa perfected having 7 ghosts ready with lockdown at MM just for Sae and Surya. Watch some old replays of her and learn how to do it. MM recalls are VERY VERY stoppable. You just have to be ready for the possibility. Your argument that they are unstoppable is completely false and asinine and it seems like you are more talking out of the inability to control your emo because you just plain don't like MM rushes. And that's fine... but that is the argument you are making... which is a lousy ass argument. Most of what you are saying are blanket statements rather than actual arguments. Like "That's not the way the game was meant to be played!" But if you take that argument... the whole game was NEVER meant to be played with money maps. Fastest and ZC maps go against how Blizzard designed the game... so by your argument, we shouldn't even be playing ZC. Go play BGH or learn how to think like an adult. Until you can learn to come up with an actual REASON, don't post here any more... you are only hurting yourself.
Quote from: Mast-I-Kater on June 07, 2017, 08:36:42 AM
Quote from: thunder on June 06, 2017, 06:27:29 PM
Quote from: killer on June 06, 2017, 04:52:35 PM
Haha moron. I guess I am. Anyone that has played even just ONE game with you or gamer knows the way you play. Every cheap tactic in the book. I would rather not play the game at all than play with you. Just my personal opinion. You and gamer have played the game more than anybody yet neither have been considered anywhere near the top. Only when nobody plays and as a joke "law is top 5." But expert has always had some lesbian crush on me and broke several monitors/keyboards because of me so I'll stop. The point is the game is meant to be played a certain way and I don't think the rules should deviate from it. You can do whatever you want law idc I've learned my lesson many times to stay far away from you. Greetings
I personally think we can keep the MM+1 rule as is, but the grace period must be removed. It's basically NR MM+3 with that rule in place. The rule used to always be NR MM+1 in ZCT, I believe.
Rules shouldn't be in place to give everyone a pillow while some people have their knives already out for a fight.
The grace period makes it NRMM+1.5
To Killer's retarded comments.... If someone is MM recalling you... they have to have 150 energy to do it. Your allie P should be able to have 100 energy and stasis upg to stop it. Also, Lisa perfected having 7 ghosts ready with lockdown at MM just for Sae and Surya. Watch some old replays of her and learn how to do it. MM recalls are VERY VERY stoppable. You just have to be ready for the possibility. Your argument that they are unstoppable is completely false and asinine and it seems like you are more talking out of the inability to control your emo because you just plain don't like MM rushes. And that's fine... but that is the argument you are making... which is a lousy ass argument. Most of what you are saying are blanket statements rather than actual arguments. Like "That's not the way the game was meant to be played!" But if you take that argument... the whole game was NEVER meant to be played with money maps. Fastest and ZC maps go against how Blizzard designed the game... so by your argument, we shouldn't even be playing ZC. Go play BGH or learn how to think like an adult. Until you can learn to come up with an actual REASON, don't post here any more... you are only hurting yourself.
No moron
DAAAAAAAAMNNNN GG NO REQuote from: Mast-I-Kater on June 07, 2017, 08:36:42 AM
Quote from: thunder on June 06, 2017, 06:27:29 PM
Quote from: killer on June 06, 2017, 04:52:35 PM
Haha moron. I guess I am. Anyone that has played even just ONE game with you or gamer knows the way you play. Every cheap tactic in the book. I would rather not play the game at all than play with you. Just my personal opinion. You and gamer have played the game more than anybody yet neither have been considered anywhere near the top. Only when nobody plays and as a joke "law is top 5." But expert has always had some lesbian crush on me and broke several monitors/keyboards because of me so I'll stop. The point is the game is meant to be played a certain way and I don't think the rules should deviate from it. You can do whatever you want law idc I've learned my lesson many times to stay far away from you. Greetings
I personally think we can keep the MM+1 rule as is, but the grace period must be removed. It's basically NR MM+3 with that rule in place. The rule used to always be NR MM+1 in ZCT, I believe.
Rules shouldn't be in place to give everyone a pillow while some people have their knives already out for a fight.
The grace period makes it NRMM+1.5
To Killer's retarded comments.... If someone is MM recalling you... they have to have 150 energy to do it. Your allie P should be able to have 100 energy and stasis upg to stop it. Also, Lisa perfected having 7 ghosts ready with lockdown at MM just for Sae and Surya. Watch some old replays of her and learn how to do it. MM recalls are VERY VERY stoppable. You just have to be ready for the possibility. Your argument that they are unstoppable is completely false and asinine and it seems like you are more talking out of the inability to control your emo because you just plain don't like MM rushes. And that's fine... but that is the argument you are making... which is a lousy ass argument. Most of what you are saying are blanket statements rather than actual arguments. Like "That's not the way the game was meant to be played!" But if you take that argument... the whole game was NEVER meant to be played with money maps. Fastest and ZC maps go against how Blizzard designed the game... so by your argument, we shouldn't even be playing ZC. Go play BGH or learn how to think like an adult. Until you can learn to come up with an actual REASON, don't post here any more... you are only hurting yourself.
It needs to be either NR MM or NR MM+1. There's too much grey area with a grace period. As previously stated, ZCTour gave half points for MM rushing & it worked perfectly. I vividly remember a bunch of people refusing to MM rush with Megix simply because of the lost points. I loved doing blobs with him ;D
Bombing - no mains, no tech, no overlords in safe zone, no air on depots or pylons, but could hunt all fucking day with ground
No matter how many rules are implemented, people always find ways around & get "cheap tactics". If you don't like how someone plays, then don't play with that person. Joe & Killakill come up with prolific strategies to get around rules. It's always going to happen. People cried about MM recalls & then Lisa perfected that shit against Saewong & Achmed. Adapt & beat them at their own game.
Cliffs: make it NR MM or NR MM+1
How does everyone define MM rush? I think we need a clear definition.
Quote from: Pr1meIVI on June 07, 2017, 11:04:38 AM
How does everyone define MM rush? I think we need a clear definition.
Attacking at mm?..................................
Quote from: Tr0uble on June 07, 2017, 12:45:33 PM
Quote from: Pr1meIVI on June 07, 2017, 11:04:38 AM
How does everyone define MM rush? I think we need a clear definition.
Attacking at mm?..................................
For MM Rushing and whether 50% points is reward compared to 100% full win.
Haha well because you said not to post anymore Tyler I certainly won't! I wouldn't want to hurt myself.. Since the last time you played ZC was 1998 it makes perfect sense for you to come back and demand certain rules and think you are right. You played in an error where games were played differently. Things have changed. This is not ZCT. It is ZCL. You have zero power/authority/influence over anything the same as I. Yet you can talk but I can't? Im defending the way I play and so are you. They are opinions. But you are right and I'm wrong? If mm comes you should NEVER have to worry about incoming threats until after a minute. If you disagree I truthfully do not give a shit. That minute is crucial to the outcome and performance of the Terran/Zerg race. Without it is a waste of time. And pretty sure since lisa played it was always nr mm+1 so.. Nice. NOT MM. Many mm +1 recall. We have NEVER played nr mm where it says units cannot be made and then second later have a recall at your main. Then you'll have to create further rules OMFG HE CROSSED THE LINE BEFORE IT WAS MM DQ! But again you'd know cause you been around!
NOBODY LIKES MM RUSHES. NOBODY. The most respected players here prime Thunder Athena ect. I can go on forever. Never seen them mm rush. Not once. We are basically arguing over rules designed for law(bf). You are coming here after 20 years trying to implement what you know/think. The game was played differently when you played. Now it is played a certain way and the players generally understood that. You need an ACTUAL reason why people don't like mm rushes? Hold on let me get my adult mind here.. How about because it's a waste of fucking time? If I saw hydras coming at me I would quit before I even got touched. I do not care for mm rushes.
We never had any problems with mm rushes or anything until you came along *thinking like an adult* You are nothing but a player just like me just like slapthatass. Stop thinking you are more because you aren't. You will not bring ZC back to 1995. It has advanced in your absence and will continue to do so. There should always be a minute after mm to sort things out. But don't worry if it's nr mm I will definitely not play so gogogo!! Get what you want Tyler (:
You cannot define mm rush. People will find ways around it. Whatever rule you make well then only two allies will go mid at mm. Is that a mm rush? Or go over the side. Keep the game at mm+1 and if a team wants to mm rush they should give notice to the other team and receive full points for the win. This way every player is actually AWARE of the game and can adapt accordingly instead of oh fuck they are mm rushing gg total waste of time
Tyler is just confusing all of us with this nr mm/nr mm+1/mm rush. Mm rush to me is 3 players attacking through mid or side collectively at mm+1.
Quote from: Pr1meIVI on June 07, 2017, 01:18:17 PM
Quote from: Tr0uble on June 07, 2017, 12:45:33 PM
Quote from: Pr1meIVI on June 07, 2017, 11:04:38 AM
How does everyone define MM rush? I think we need a clear definition.
Attacking at mm?..................................
For MM Rushing and whether 50% points is reward compared to 100% full win.
Make it Nr MM and define a MM "Rush" as anything before 1min. I guess same if it's NR MM+1, then anything before MM+2 is MM "Rush"
"Mm rush to me is 3 players attacking through mid or side collectively at mm+1"
Fucking thank you killer. This is what I've been trying to say. This has been ALWAYS the case, and I have played all of ZCL. This idea that rcs at mm+1 or zergs use mutas bombs mid at mm +1 is mm rush is COMPLETELY new, and none of us agree to it.
Quote from: killer on June 07, 2017, 01:18:30 PM
Haha well because you said not to post anymore Tyler I certainly won't! I wouldn't want to hurt myself.. Since the last time you played ZC was 1998 it makes perfect sense for you to come back and demand certain rules and think you are right. You played in an error where games were played differently. Things have changed. This is not ZCT. It is ZCL. You have zero power/authority/influence over anything the same as I. Yet you can talk but I can't? Im defending the way I play and so are you. They are opinions. But you are right and I'm wrong? If mm comes you should NEVER have to worry about incoming threats until after a minute. If you disagree I truthfully do not give a shit. That minute is crucial to the outcome and performance of the Terran/Zerg race. Without it is a waste of time. And pretty sure since lisa played it was always nr mm+1 so.. Nice. NOT MM. Many mm +1 recall. We have NEVER played nr mm where it says units cannot be made and then second later have a recall at your main. Then you'll have to create further rules OMFG HE CROSSED THE LINE BEFORE IT WAS MM DQ! But again you'd know cause you been around!
NOBODY LIKES MM RUSHES. NOBODY. The most respected players here prime Thunder Athena ect. I can go on forever. Never seen them mm rush. Not once. We are basically arguing over rules designed for law(bf). You are coming here after 20 years trying to implement what you know/think. The game was played differently when you played. Now it is played a certain way and the players generally understood that. You need an ACTUAL reason why people don't like mm rushes? Hold on let me get my adult mind here.. How about because it's a waste of fucking time? If I saw hydras coming at me I would quit before I even got touched. I do not care for mm rushes.
We never had any problems with mm rushes or anything until you came along *thinking like an adult* You are nothing but a player just like me just like slapthatass. Stop thinking you are more because you aren't. You will not bring ZC back to 1995. It has advanced in your absence and will continue to do so. There should always be a minute after mm to sort things out. But don't worry if it's nr mm I will definitely not play so gogogo!! Get what you want Tyler (:
You cannot define mm rush. People will find ways around it. Whatever rule you make well then only two allies will go mid at mm. Is that a mm rush? Or go over the side. Keep the game at mm+1 and if a team wants to mm rush they should give notice to the other team and receive full points for the win. This way every player is actually AWARE of the game and can adapt accordingly instead of oh fuck they are mm rushing gg total waste of time
Tyler is just confusing all of us with this nr mm/nr mm+1/mm rush. Mm rush to me is 3 players attacking through mid or side collectively at mm+1.
Moron
*Obviously he doesn't like mid game at mm, he is" maxed" with 12 arbs and 4 Temps at mm or "maxed" with 30 ports 150 workers 6 tanks at mm.
Players don't give a fck about score, the only reason why players don't go at mid at mm it's because easy to stop it, unless you are a player like killer.
Imo just remove " mm rush ", everything is allowed after mm+1.
The unique rule that i really like is the hatch limit.
The way I see it, there are only two feasible options that are both better than what we have now, in terms of the rush rule.
In addition, know that ZC NR MM is literally the ONLY melee game type in which players don't scout throughout the game. Given the current rules, you are able to scout the opposing side by a non-army unit. This should be practiced more... (I know I will be).
Define MM rush as when at least two players attack on the opposing side, with the intent to do
1) No rush MM + 1. No grace period. No -50% points mm rush rule.
2) No rush MM + 2. No grace period. No -50% points mm rush rule.
I like option 1.
I personally think zc was at a great place before it "died." Everyone understood and accepted the rules. Not sure why anyone would want to revert to things that have been proven as failures. Kyung brings up a great point. I've played in countless games where surya prime say kyung yan ect will go mid or recall mid at mm+1, take mid, and basically win the game themself. I wouldnt even have to do anything. Send scv. That would be ridiculous to call that a mm rush that is just one BEAST of a player basically 1v3ing. Even if tanks and wraiths and guards follow shortly after I would not call that a mm rush. Mutas bombing mid is also a great strategy. Why not just keep everything the way it was? Or at least put it to a vote
Quote from: killer on June 07, 2017, 03:31:17 PM
I personally think zc was at a great place before it "died." Everyone understood and accepted the rules. Not sure why anyone would want to revert to things that have been proven as failures. Kyung brings up a great point. I've played in countless games where surya prime say kyung yan ect will go mid or recall mid at mm+1, take mid, and basically win the game themself. I wouldnt even have to do anything. Send scv. That would be ridiculous to call that a mm rush that is just one BEAST of a player basically 1v3ing. Even if tanks and wraiths and guards follow shortly after I would not call that a mm rush. Mutas bombing mid is also a great strategy. Why not just keep everything the way it was? Or at least put it to a vote
I get that you want to be heard, but if you're not an active player, then why are you chiming in just to inhibit the active players?
Because what makes more sense to you? Determining the rules and how things are going to be done BEFORE I come back or AFTER? Yeah.. Let me comeback just for you to COMPLETELY change the game we have all been playing this entire time? Which active player am I inhibiting? Lmao. You literally make zero sense. Me agreeing with Kyung and asking for a LEAGUE VOTE? Inhibing active players.. Yeah you got me my bad. I'll play a game tonight so I'm permitted to talk on the forum don't worry Thunder!
How interesting though.. Haven't seen Mast play a game.. Yet he's allowed to "inhibit active players" and be heard. Good logic (:
Yes, I am still waiting to hear WHEN that rule was changed and WHY. When did bombing mid with mutas at mm+1 or temp dropping at mm+1 become a mm rush for the whole team? and WHY? I posed the question from the very beginning. If our rules changed without the majority's knowledge, we should know why, at the very least.
Quote from: korean]to[ on June 07, 2017, 04:31:27 PM
Yes, I am still waiting to hear WHEN that rule was changed and WHY. When did bombing mid with mutas at mm+1 or temp dropping at mm+1 become a mm rush for the whole team? and WHY? I posed the question from the very beginning. If our rules changed without the majority's knowledge, we should know why, at the very least.
You're being overskeptical on the wrong details. These rules have been in place since around the beginning of ZCL. It's just that strategies develop, and nobody bothered to think about the rules before. There are just
many unwritten rules that we just go by. People like killer probably pushed for safer rules to be prepared at 10 mins, then play the game. Rules aren't just pulled out of thin air.
Sigh Andy. I just quoted what the rule on ZCL site was. Let me do that shit for you again because you obviously either failed to understand my point or didn't bother to read it and just responded.
As of January 6, 2012, which is at least 2 years after ZCL started, the rules were:
MM Rushing
- MM Rushing is allowed, but will receive 50% points of full win.
- MM rush grace period of 60-90 seconds
ex) MM 830, anytime between 930-1000 is considered MM RUSH
- Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle before 60 seconds is a disqualification.
- Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle in between 60-90 seconds is considered a MM Rush.
- Any controlled attack of 10 units per team member rushing in the middle after the grace period is considered a full game loss/win
Then, somewhere along the way, the rules changed to our current
- MM Rushing is allowed, but will receive 50% points of full win.
- MM rush grace period of 60-90 seconds
- Any player crossing the wall or mid and attacking before MM+1 will recieve a DQ.
- Any attack from any player between 60-90 after MM is considered a MM rush
- Any unit(s) besides scvs, probes, drones going across mid/side walls before 60 seconds of MM is DQ. Overlords are allowed to scout before MM.
- Opposing team is allowed to kill any unit as long as it is on their side prior to map max
- Clearing sides after MM is allowed as long as the units does not go past the wall edge of the opposing sides before MM+1
- if any unit attacking beyond the middle statue will be considered a DQ
According to the first set of rules, all the tactics I mentioned were legal, and people have been using the said tactics before ZCL started. These strategies did not simply "develop" during ZCL. It was not that "nobody bothered to think about the rules before;" it was that the rules changed DURING zcl. So please, if you want to be involved in the discussion, read what others have said BEFORE you comment. Thanks.
You're being overskeptical on the wrong details. These rules have been in place since around the beginning of ZCL. It's just that strategies develop, and nobody bothered to think about the rules before. There are just many unwritten rules that we just go by. People like killer probably pushed for safer rules to be prepared at 10 mins, then play the game. Rules aren't just pulled out of thin air.
Contradicted much....... First the rules have been in place since the beginning.. And then there are UNWRITTEN rules you just go by? As a league what are we supposed to just GUESS what those unwritten rules are? And then.. Rules aren't just pulled out of thin air? If they are UNWRITTEN.. THAT IS EXACTLY WHERE THEY ARE PULLED OUT OF? Come up with what you want the final rules to be quickly and let people decide whether to continue playing the game or leave. I wanted to come back and play but I do not support any of the things you are saying. Sorry.
Quote from: killer on June 07, 2017, 05:01:05 PM
You're being overskeptical on the wrong details. These rules have been in place since around the beginning of ZCL. It's just that strategies develop, and nobody bothered to think about the rules before. There are just many unwritten rules that we just go by. People like killer probably pushed for safer rules to be prepared at 10 mins, then play the game. Rules aren't just pulled out of thin air.
Contradicted much....... First the rules have been in place since the beginning.. And then there are UNWRITTEN rules you just go by? As a league what are we supposed to just GUESS what those unwritten rules are? And then.. Rules aren't just pulled out of thin air? If they are UNWRITTEN.. THAT IS EXACTLY WHERE THEY ARE PULLED OUT OF? Come up with what you want the final rules to be quickly and let people decide whether to continue playing the game or leave. I wanted to come back and play but I do not support any of the things you are saying. Sorry.
Damn you guys are being snarky as hell with that passive aggressive/sarcastic mirror endings "Thanks/Sorry" lol
Response to kyu:
1) This is anecdotal, as I don't recall the exact reasoning for the rules changing. Ask pr1me or myst. However, you can kind of retroactively backtrack and see that the rules clearly got more specific post-change. This indicates that people were attacking with low unit counts before the time limit (i.e. you can literally attack with 5 units before mm and its not a dq). You shouldn't be asking when these rules changed (which you answered yourself) or why they changed. It should be: what should the rules be now? Which is why I specifically made this post.
Response to killer:
2) It's not contradictory. There have always been unwritten rules. Again, there are so many loopholes to the rules currently that you would literally ragequit if I were to abuse them if I ever got to play you again. For example, did you know that until literally 3 hours ago, that you were able to build on your opponents side (i.e. I'm able to build pylons to block your nexus from building at 2 minutes into the game), and you were able to block buildings using your probe near mm to fuck with opponents' building placements?
Hunting pylons/depots with ground is also frowned upon. Or even production buildings in general. Like cmon, you know this is a moot point to argue about. There have always been "rules" people play by but aren't official.
any cliff notes for the past 3 pages? tldr
Quote from: Admin on June 07, 2017, 05:57:48 PM
any cliff notes for the past 3 pages? tldr
TL;DR:
Kyu & Killer: y u do dis?
Me: rules are no good
Kyu & Killer: cries
Me: use brain or gtfo
(https://media.giphy.com/media/aLU0jzGwypUbu/giphy.gif)
Quote from: thunder on June 07, 2017, 03:28:15 PM
The way I see it, there are only two feasible options that are both better than what we have now, in terms of the rush rule.
In addition, know that ZC NR MM is literally the ONLY melee game type in which players don't scout throughout the game. Given the current rules, you are able to scout the opposing side by a non-army unit. This should be practiced more... (I know I will be).
Define MM rush as when at least two players attack on the opposing side, with the intent to do
1) No rush MM + 1. No grace period. No -50% points mm rush rule.
2) No rush MM + 2. No grace period. No -50% points mm rush rule.
I like option 1.
Same
You havent been on law...
Need computer, killer can you share urs?
Triple teaming sounds sketchy. I like the current system, especially when you can just triple team the weakest player.
I don't know if it's allowed in the rules or not, but I think there should be an option for people to make a team of 3 players as long as the opposing team accepts the team and is willing to play them, without doing melee to decide. This will possibly get a few games in a row with same teams like a mini series with rematches. There are some players who don't mind playing with me and others that don't like playing with me. I'm sure we can get good games if I get 2 really good players that like me, on their team against 3 other normal playing pros. This could work with other low pros also.
Quote from: DiscoveredCheck on June 08, 2017, 01:14:30 AM
Triple teaming sounds sketchy. I like the current system, especially when you can just triple team the weakest player.
I don't know if it's allowed in the rules or not, but I think there should be an option for people to make a team of 3 players as long as the opposing team accepts the team and is willing to play them, without doing melee to decide. This will possibly get a few games in a row with same teams like a mini series with rematches. There are some players who don't mind playing with me and others that don't like playing with me. I'm sure we can get good games if I get 2 really good players that like me, on their team against 3 other normal playing pros. This could work with other low pros also.
- Players may set teams before melee but all players must agree to teams.
Right at the top of the page broski
Lol gone for a day working... came back and so much entertainment to read!!
True, I have not played yet. I don't believe in mediocrity and thus have been trying to get builds down for each of the races before I come back... that way I dont play like a chump due to not being able to even finish a base by MM. So far, I have all races down to be ready for an 8:25mm. Might start playing today if I can keep my interenet from dropping once an hour. That and I am having to get used to the game hotkeys... I played for years with my own customized hotkeys, and Blizzard is using a different game file to load hotkeys, so until I figure out what game file is being used for mapping hotkeys, I have to learn how to use all of the original game ones :( which is annoying and taking a lot of re-learning. Back to the topic....
Personally... I think it should just be NRMM. If ANYONE on the team attacks within 1min after MM, then it is considered an MM rush and only receives 50% points.
leaving a drone/probe/scv/overloard in key places during building time would tell you what the other team is up to. There are lots of ways to tell if people are going to be MM rushing. You just don't want to use your brain to figure out how to stop them.
True, I haven't played this game seriously since 2008, but I do know a LOT of this game's history, mechanics, strategies for everything, and I know logical arguments... if people say shit that doesn't make sense... I help point out their reasoning. If more and more people stood up and agreed that "We just don't like MM Rushes", then that would be one thing... but so far I have only seen 1, maybe 2 people (currently) really making a huge deal about keeping them off limits. With a majority of people saying that the problem isn't in the MM rushes, but in the confusing nature of the rules wording. I personally don't care what the outcome is. I can adapt and figure things out... but when you have a competitive league where the goal is to end as the Season Winner and get your name forever in the history books... you can't blame people for doing whatever they can to win. If this was just a social hour and meant to be just for shits and giggles, then I might say the argument of "i don't like MM rushes" would hold more weight.... but in a competitive league where the goal is to win, it just doesn't hold weight. Sorry.
When do we get to vote on a rule change? :) Does a player in the league need to propose it? Or does an admin need to post a poll to initiate it? Just curious about the current protocols to enact rule changes.
I suggest we augment a rule along the following lines:
In the occasion that a team MM rushes and the defending team wins / or wins prior to XX (maybe 20?) minutes into the game, then the defending team gets double points
This is just a suggestion -doesn't have to be made- but it is kinda interesting.
Dont make it more complicated. Keep it simple. As more rules, as more time will get wasted for discussion about results.
Quote from: Invincible[BF] on June 10, 2017, 12:39:51 PM
Dont make it more complicated. Keep it simple. As more rules, as more time will get wasted for discussion about results.
I definitely understand that sentiment. I just threw this up there because with the new rules, there might be a small increase of rushes, and this makes it so that it's a high-risk high-reward option.
I agree 100% with Andy.
I have nothing against MM rushing, but it seems the ONLY reason why people do it, is whenever they feel uneasy about a certain match up. Players that get lower tier players as allies by default, immediately result to MM rushing to obtain the win. I strongly think we need to lower the incentive of this, so players can learn to actually try and play it out, rather than just cheese their way to a victory.
Players that have units at MM and want to attack right away SHOULD be rewarded for their prowess. However, I think players that are able to defend a rush SHOULD ALSO be rewarded in their capability to defend it as well. To summarize, I agree with Demurity where I think we need to create a rule that lowers the incentives of rushing, and also adheres to a high-risk high-reward opportunity.
@Invincible[BF] - I don't think this is complicated at all. If a rule like this is implemented, it simply should reduce the risk of MM rushing when players decide in-game. The only people that this should actually be taxed upon would be the admins doing the scoring.
Quote from: TrippY on June 10, 2017, 01:37:48 PM
I agree 100% with Andy.
I have nothing against MM rushing, but it seems the ONLY reason why people do it, is whenever they feel uneasy about a certain match up. Players that get lower tier players as allies by default, immediately result to MM rushing to obtain the win. I strongly think we need to lower the incentive of this, so players can learn to actually try and play it out, rather than just cheese their way to a victory.
Players that have units at MM and want to attack right away SHOULD be rewarded for their prowess. However, I think players that are able to defend a rush SHOULD ALSO be rewarded in their capability to defend it as well. To summarize, I agree with Demurity where I think we need to create a rule that lowers the incentives of rushing, and also adheres to a high-risk high-reward opportunity.
@Invincible[BF] - I don't think this is complicated at all. If a rule like this is implemented, it simply should reduce the risk of MM rushing when players decide in-game. The only people that this should actually be taxed upon would be the admins doing the scoring.
i dont consider mm rush cheese. i dont want this suggestion to be thought of as a way to deter people from attempting to mm rush. people should be playing within the confines of the rules, to the extent of the rules. mm rushes in general should be increasing in quantity because they should be, in general, an advantage for the team that hits hard and hits first. however, you should get punished if you fail to finish the game when your team coordinated the attack.
rofl you wanted mm rush and now you think teams should get bonus points for defending when they should already "use their brain and have units already". especially with stacked teams defending against mm rush should be easy. 2x points is way too much especially with scoring done by avg points per game.
Quote from: TrippY on June 10, 2017, 01:37:48 PM
I agree 100% with Andy.
I have nothing against MM rushing, but it seems the ONLY reason why people do it, is whenever they feel uneasy about a certain match up. Players that get lower tier players as allies by default, immediately result to MM rushing to obtain the win. I strongly think we need to lower the incentive of this, so players can learn to actually try and play it out, rather than just cheese their way to a victory.
Players that have units at MM and want to attack right away SHOULD be rewarded for their prowess. However, I think players that are able to defend a rush SHOULD ALSO be rewarded in their capability to defend it as well. To summarize, I agree with Demurity where I think we need to create a rule that lowers the incentives of rushing, and also adheres to a high-risk high-reward opportunity.
@Invincible[BF] - I don't think this is complicated at all. If a rule like this is implemented, it simply should reduce the risk of MM rushing when players decide in-game. The only people that this should actually be taxed upon would be the admins doing the scoring.
I totally disagree, if u can't hold and mm rush u deserve a total lose (especially when "pro players" are maxed and with big base) . Mm rush deserves 100% points.
Jesus Christ
Quote from: Admin on June 10, 2017, 02:42:50 PM
rofl you wanted mm rush and now you think teams should get bonus points for defending when they should already "use their brain and have units already". especially with stacked teams defending against mm rush should be easy. 2x points is way too much especially with scoring done by avg points per game.
alright, fair. i retract this suggestion